Aslan invasions of Domain of Deneb.

[Nadia Grell]

Ever since Mega Traveller t has shown on maps that Aslan Itahei invades several sub-sectors of Spinward Marshes. I have always thought this was strange. I mean there were a number of naval bases in these areas and all the sub-sector fleets. How come the Aslan managed to invade the Imperium like that, when not even an alliance of Zhodani, Vargr bands and Sword Worlds could do it. And the Zhodani even had terrorist groups and infiltrators already in place.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ever since Mega Traveller t has shown on maps that Aslan Itahei invades several sub-sectors of Spinward Marshes. I have always thought this was strange. I mean there were a number of naval bases in these areas and all the sub-sector fleets. How come the Aslan managed to invade the Imperium like that, when not even an alliance of Zhodani, Vargr bands and Sword Worlds could do it. And the Zhodani even had terrorist groups and infiltrators already in place.

Because the number of Aslan ships out tonnage the Imperial Navy ships by over 3 to 1. Also, the Imperium has never fought more than 4 Clans at once. After the Aslan ambassador is murdered, all of the Ihetai from all of the clans that had been gathering in the Trojan Reach came screaming across the border at once, just like the Chinese when they entered the Korean War. Nothing could stand against those numbers. Also, Aslan are trained to take and defend territory from the womb, humans and vargr are not.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Doesn't work out well for TL12/13 Ihetai fleets vs TL15 IN warships fresh from their FFW victory. Even at 3 to 1 they would lose.

The only thing that has ever made sense to me is Norris pulled a fast one and invited the Aslan to "invade".

He knows that Aslan can become loyal vassals, it also gives him a chance to deploy hard line Lucanites or anyone who objects to his elevation to Archduke to the "conflict" with the Aslan.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Doesn't work out well for TL12/13 Ihetai fleets vs TL15 IN warships fresh from their FFW victory. Even at 3 to 1 they would lose.

Not necessarily. What happens to troops when the country they are fighting for no longer exists? It is a bit demoralizing which does affect combat ability.

Also, since when has the narrative story in Traveller ever lined up with what the rules say would happen?

The Trojan Reach is also severely underpowered for a Sector Fleet. For example, the sheer number of military bases that the 3I have in the Trojan Reach and don't have the ships to actually man those naval bases.

My guess is that the IN was even further depleted from the FFW. The Aslan invaded in 1117 and the hostilities with them didn't end until 1126, 9 years later. Even after the FFW ended, Deneb was still fighting the Vargr. 1130, tired of fighting the Vargr, Deneb withdraws its forces from Corridor Sector leaving it to the Vargr to plunder. So, they lost to the Vargr who are less cohesive than the Aslan and have smaller ships than the Aslan. Deneb has basically been at war from 1110 until the 1140s. In 1110, Deneb was part of a great empire. By 1130, they stand alone.

None of this sounds like they have "fresh" warships. They have battered warships "fresh" out of a war.

 

[Vormaerin]

Pretty much everything about the Regency era is awful, imho.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Pretty much everything about the Regency era is awful, imho.

To me the Regency Era is just proof that even in fictional RPG universes, one thing still holds true, "People are stupid"

"People are stupid" describes the entire reason that the Rebellion and the Virus happened.

Dulinor killing the Emperor? Hey, I want to create a more progressive Imperium, so let's assassinate the most progressive Emperor who actually supports Dulinor's desire for a more liberal Imperium.

The Virus? Hey, let's attack this cyberwarfare research station and download all of the data to our computers! Ummm... Did you miss the part about it is a cyberwarfare research center? Do not download cyberwarfare weapons directly to your networked computer system! People knew that stuff thousands of years before the Third Imperium existed.

So, the only way any of the stuff happens from mid-1116 on is by people being incredibly stupid, Rebellion and Virus.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd check on how the economy's doing.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'd check on how the economy's doing.

Yeah, because you can actually check that in Traveller without an economic system...

 

[Condottiere]

It's about as generic as The Long Night, considering the scale.

While local economies could be exuberant, the Imperium's as a whole might be experiencing a depression, possibly because of having to pay for their defence budget.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It's about as generic as The Long Night, considering the scale.

While local economies could be exuberant, the Imperium's as a whole might be experiencing a depression, possibly because of having to pay for their defence budget.

Again. How do you "check the economies" if there is no economic data? If your post was serious, then I definitely want to know how you "check the economies" because I have been trying to figure that out for quite some time now, as have others on these forums, and I still have no idea how to do it.

 

[Condottiere]

That would be up to the writers, to drop breadcrumbs that all is not well in the Imperium, and some more higher up, to spell it out as to what that could be due to.

There's always a question as to why empires fall, and usually it's due to external pressure, and internal weakness.

 

[collins355]

Ever since Mega Traveller t has shown on maps that Aslan Itahei invades several sub-sectors of Spinward Marshes. I have always thought this was strange. I mean there were a number of naval bases in these areas and all the sub-sector fleets. How come the Aslan managed to invade the Imperium like that, when not even an alliance of Zhodani, Vargr bands and Sword Worlds could do it. And the Zhodani even had terrorist groups and infiltrators already in place.

Yes, many people before you have pointed this out, over many years.

The original plot in Rebellion Sourcebook put a lot of stock in the fact that the Imperium in 1117- was wracked by civil war. The Aslan supposedly took advantage of that disruption and distraction. Norris was supposedly preoccupied by Zhodani, Sword Worlds and Vargr threats, and decided to turn the Aslan problem over to his chief of staff rather than deal with it himself.

 

[Vormaerin]

It also assumes the ihatei are mysteriously plentiful, have amazing logistics, and are have vessels and soldiers technologically sophisticated enough to deal with Imperial military forces successfully enough that they overrun the entire Glisten subsector and chucks of District 268 and Trin's Veil in addition to Tobia, Dpres, and Sindal. That's like a gain of 35 or so parsecs from their starting point by 1120.

These are the guys who can't get a good job at home in their clans so they f' off in whatever resources they can scrape up or their clan can spare.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It also assumes the ihatei are mysteriously plentiful, have amazing logistics, and are have vessels and soldiers technologically sophisticated enough to deal with Imperial military forces successfully enough that they overrun the entire Glisten subsector and chucks of District 268 and Trin's Veil in addition to Tobia, Dpres, and Sindal. That's like a gain of 35 or so parsecs from their starting point by 1120.

These are the guys who can't get a good job at home in their clans so they f' off in whatever resources they can scrape up or their clan can spare.

History would disagree with you.

Chinese Operations in the Korean War, 1950–1953 Part I - War History

When China’s peasant army intervened in the Korean War inOctober 1950, all of the material factors favored the UN armies. Led by MarshalPeng Dehu...

warhistory.org

The UN forces were vastly superior but that didn't stop them from getting pushed into the sea.

Also, if only 1% of families in the Heirate have an ihetai, that is still 1 billion Aslan. Even if they show up naked, that is enough numbers to overwhelm the Imperium in such a lightly defended part of Imperial Space. Also, remember, that is if only 1% of families have ihetai. The actual number is likely closer to 20% of families have an ihetai.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, I'd say it would be strategic surprise, a willingness to sacrifice assets whose loyalty was considered dubious, and MacArthur.

 

[MasterGwydion]

As I recall, I'd say it would be strategic surprise, a willingness to sacrifice assets whose loyalty was considered dubious, and MacArthur.

Agreed. There were reasons, but the Aslan have shown a willingness to expend their ihetai for cultural stability. The whole point of ihetai expanding outside of the Heirate is so that their society doesn't devolve into another civil war. So, they are willing to sacrifice the ihetai. Aslan attacking was strategic surprise. As for the Imperial military commander, if the moron from the PoD adventure Vice-Admiral Krond is any indication, the Imperial Military in the Sector doesn't have much good leadership.

 

[MonsterX]

IMTU Ihatei invasions seem to be to be less of a military incursion, and more of a cross between settlers and illegal immigrants. Maybe like Vikings,they would settle, raid, conquer, or just get killed off depending on how the odds stack up in whatever place they end up landing in, on local attitudes towards them and on whether opportunities come up (such as military service in exchange for citizenship). Their clans might lend some support to them which could be logicistical, military or diplomatic but probably aren't fully committed to backing them, and sometimes really don't care at all: also if they do something inconvenient or embarrassing for the clan, the clan can just disown them. If they were committed to help them, it would be a full scale invasion instead of Ihatei incursions. Over time, though, despite lots of setbacks and failures, they would build up settlements on underpopulated worlds, colonize uncolonized regions, or integrate themselves into the societies where they emigrate to, expanding the range of Aslan settlement gradually, but generally more quickly than most other races, and possibly retaining and expanding their clans' influence - if they retain those links (which they don't always do).

IMTU, the PCs took the DNR close to and then secretly through Hierate space, and encountered a lot of Imperial spying and monitoring of the Aslan on its way through the Trojan Reaches, and backing of the Storm Knights with secret weapons transfers because of concerns that the Aslan might take advantage of the coming war with the Zhodani to make territorial gains. Also the Muirimi Regency has been on a genocidal campaign against the Ihatei in the Iphigenaia and Theron Sectors to prevent themselves from being overwhelmed, and the DNR found signs of this. The Aslan still manage to start up new colonies from time to time, so this is probably a battle the Muirimi will eventually lose.

Looking at Traveller Map, the Aslan enclave near the Trojan Reach has a lot of hi-pop, hi-ish tech worlds, so probably has the industry to really make problems for the Imperium if the clans were to unite and go to war with the Imperium. They could probably swing things for the Zhodani, if they were allies. But that seems to be a different idea to the Ihatei concept - IMTU Ihatei could cause the tensions that lead to war between the Imperium and Hierate, which would cause both the Imperium and the Hierate trouble, but they won't be more than annoying policy issue for either side on their own.

 

[MasterGwydion]

IMTU Ihatei invasions seem to be to be less of a military incursion, and more of a cross between settlers and illegal immigrants. Maybe like Vikings,they would settle, raid, conquer, or just get killed off depending on how the odds stack up in whatever place they end up landing in, on local attitudes towards them and on whether opportunities come up (such as military service in exchange for citizenship). Their clans might lend some support to them which could be logicistical, military or diplomatic but probably aren't fully committed to backing them, and sometimes really don't care at all: also if they do something inconvenient or embarrassing for the clan, the clan can just disown them. If they were committed to help them, it would be a full scale invasion instead of Ihatei incursions. Over time, though, despite lots of setbacks and failures, they would build up settlements on underpopulated worlds, colonize uncolonized regions, or integrate themselves into the societies where they emigrate to, expanding the range of Aslan settlement gradually, but generally more quickly than most other races, and possibly retaining and expanding their clans' influence - if they retain those links (which they don't always do).

IMTU, the PCs took the DNR close to and then secretly through Hierate space, and encountered a lot of Imperial spying and monitoring of the Aslan on its way through the Trojan Reaches, and backing of the Storm Knights with secret weapons transfers because of concerns that the Aslan might take advantage of the coming war with the Zhodani to make territorial gains. Also the Muirimi Regency has been on a genocidal campaign against the Ihatei in the Iphigenaia and Theron Sectors to prevent themselves from being overwhelmed, and the DNR found signs of this. The Aslan still manage to start up new colonies from time to time, so this is probably a battle the Muirimi will eventually lose.

Looking at Traveller Map, the Aslan enclave near the Trojan Reach has a lot of hi-pop, hi-ish tech worlds, so probably has the industry to really make problems for the Imperium if the clans were to unite and go to war with the Imperium. They could probably swing things for the Zhodani, if they were allies. But that seems to be a different idea to the Ihatei concept - IMTU Ihatei could cause the tensions that lead to war between the Imperium and Hierate, which would cause both the Imperium and the Hierate trouble, but they won't be more than annoying policy issue for either side on their own.

You mean like these Vikings?

 

[Condottiere]

The Vargr are the Vikings.

This would be volkerwanderung.

 

[Anstett]

You mean like these Vikings?

One of the fun things I throw at players who do not know These Vikings... they had more camel riders than horse riders for quite some time because of all the interactions in the east.