Army of Light - no more League? Playtest rules questions.

[Everyman]

One other thing to consider is that if there is no combined League fleet then the Ipsha, Hurr and Lumati ships join the Techno-Mage one in only be useable in special scenarios until we get some new fleets.

I would rather see the Army of Light as another possible variant but leave combined League Fleets in the game.

 

[abbot_amaury]

Bought some vree, gaim and ipsha in the recent 'going-out-of-business sale' to build a LONAW fleet together with the (few) brakiri I already own. Just because I really like the idea of a mixed combined fleet and I am getting bored when I have to paint too many ships of the same kind.
With the new 'Army of Light' rule I can trash most of these ships... : I simply don't have enough FAPs for a pure single race LONAW fleet cause I always intended to build up a combined fleet.

So I don't like that idea...

And please don't tell me that it is my choice to play good old 2nd. Ed if I prefer. Everybody around here is going to play the new official rules as soon as they see the light. And I will have to play my sweet combined league fleet on my own then....

Just 2 cents from a newbie (kind of).

Cheers,
Hagen

 

[David Anla Shok']

I recollect no evidence to indicate that national fleets were disbanded upon the establishment of the ISA.

 

[Da Boss]

I agree - quite the opposite - everyone scambled for new technology and weapons available from the ISA to make their fleets on a par or better than their neghbours / the ISA.

Varient army lists are interesting for scenarios and the like and make nice fluff

 

[Triggy]

Well, if some people don't want the scrapping of the League then what would they like to see to restrict them from simply being the default choice that allows players to fill in any gaps in the fleets with very, very few downsides (and don't tell me the initiative penalty is enough because it's not)? The reason for limiting the League is because of it being overpowered pure and simple.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Well, if some people don't want the scrapping of the League then what would they like to see to restrict them from simply being the default choice that allows players to fill in any gaps in the fleets with very, very few downsides (and don't tell me the initiative penalty is enough because it's not)? The reason for limiting the League is because of it being overpowered pure and simple.

Perhaps it is time to start the thread, "What isn't overpowered"? ;>

 

[Da Boss]

Well, if some people don't want the scrapping of the League then what would they like to see to restrict them from simply being the default choice that allows players to fill in any gaps in the fleets with very, very few downsides (and don't tell me the initiative penalty is enough because it's not)? The reason for limiting the League is because of it being overpowered pure and simple.

hmm well its seems there are several choices

1. Scrap the League and/or allow only specific version/s of it such as the Army of Light, Army of Liberation etc).

However I would strongly contend that if this is done

A) The ISA loose their Allies rule and
b) That all fleets get a reasonable slection of ships at all PL's - although Matt has said he is aginst this form the Pak'mara (no scouts, carriers - not sure why no scout - I would have thought the Pak would be the sort of race that have specialist ships "scrounging and poking about in dark places for interesting stuff"?)

2. We live with the present wide selectionnot sure how broken they are? - Its no worse than the ISA filling gaps (and they are getting a new ship) - The majority of the Great Powers can match a combined league fleet? The In penalty can be very tiresome

3. Give each race more reasons to operate independatly or a nastier penalty if they don't -maybe animosity from WFB :wink:

 

[lastbesthope]

I think the most annoying restriction in the AoL rules is the fact you can only take as many ships from each fleet as you take fleets from the AoL.

Way too restrictive.

LBH

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Well, if some people don't want the scrapping of the League then what would they like to see to restrict them from simply being the default choice that allows players to fill in any gaps in the fleets with very, very few downsides (and don't tell me the initiative penalty is enough because it's not)? The reason for limiting the League is because of it being overpowered pure and simple.

How often does it actually get used, though? I don't remember many people saying they play combined League whenever we've had those who-plays-what polls. Most players with multiple fleets have at least one League race, and many have more than one, but how often does a combined League fleet actually appear?

As for restrictions, remove the Raiders from the possible selection, and whack them with a hefty initiative penalty, -1 or more. Too many races are at +0 anyway.

 

[CZuschlag]

Quite often; if nothing else, the cheeseball Vree Scouts tend to show up everywhere.

The other part is that people have a very reasonable right to be ticked off if they have purposely bought figures to support an integrated League fleet only.

This is countered correctly by Triggy -- the combined League fleet list dwarfs and overwhelms any of the major races. League can do almost anything. And it's going to get worse, not better. Heck, I even spotted that way back here. Yes, that was 1st Edition, but the point is still valid.

So, what to do?

Try this to the Army of Light rule:

> Other ships that are not present in the Army of Light section, yet are present in the League fleet listing, may be selected. Each ship so selected reduces the fleet Initiative Rating by -1, to a maximum of -3. You can never select more external league ships than the numerical rating of the scenario (You may select 4 ships in a Raid-4 battle). You cannot use Narn, Earth Alliance, Minbari, Centauri, or ISA ships with this rule.

Improvements may exist. We do need to keep some kind of limitations; but I don't want to put players in a position where they can't field the fleet that they previously bought the minis for.

Some holes should be filled, mind you. A pak'ma'ra scout (even with the crappy CQ) should be constructed off the Sunbird hull. A Patrol Brakiri is needed (eventually).

 

[Triggy]

CZuschlag - giving a workaround like the one you've proposed would go towards both reducing the effectiveness of League fleets and would also keep the general restrictions in place. I'd also like to suggest an alternative/addition - for every ship you take for a race that is not on the list, you must have one ship from that race that is on the list.

I assume we'd drop the requirements for numbers of ships per fleet too.

Would this make people happy in allowing "League" fleets but also restricting them to something that is both fluffier and balanced?

 

[CZuschlag]

Bad thing, then?

 

[eldiablito]

Well, I can say that I like the idea and some of the implementation of the new mixed race fleet. I'm even excited that there are centauri ships there too...

Now, my main problem is that the Centauri were aligned with the ISA for only part of one year. Then the Drakh made a mess of things and the Centauri were forced to go to war with the remaining ISA nations. This makes the new army of light list exactly the same as the League; a theoretical list that was only really used as a 1 year thing...

Honestly, I LIKE the League as it is today... I do not find it nearly as powerful as a pure Centauri or pure Narn. Why do we need to loose one of the most interesting fleets? Today, I own tons of Vree, some Brakiri, a few Drazi and a Ipsha war globe (remember, the Ipsha did show up to lay claim to the Dilgar's Death Walker). I WANT to use the poorly touted storm falcon because it is in the show... If just a few more ships were added from each race, I could let go of the old League; but today, I'll remain very much against this silly decision.

 

[silashand]

I know there are plenty of players of mixed League fleets. Are you happy to go for the Army of Light? Do you have a limited number of ships, meaning the loss of combined League fleets will leave you struggling?

If the League disappears I will not play the Army of Light as some sort of poor man's replacement. Except in one specific episode it is not consistent with the canon/fluff and as such is not appealing to me except as a special scenario. The other suggestions for limiting the League sound relatively okay, though I'd prefer they were on the playtest list instead of the AoL. The latter just doesn't sound all that appealing even ignoring the lack of consistency with the background.

Bought some vree, gaim and ipsha in the recent 'going-out-of-business sale' to build a LONAW fleet together with the (few) brakiri I already own. Just because I really like the idea of a mixed combined fleet and I am getting bored when I have to paint too many ships of the same kind.
With the new 'Army of Light' rule I can trash most of these ships... : I simply don't have enough FAPs for a pure single race LONAW fleet cause I always intended to build up a combined fleet.

So I don't like that idea...

My rationale exactly.

And please don't tell me that it is my choice to play good old 2nd. Ed if I prefer. Everybody around here is going to play the new official rules as soon as they see the light. And I will have to play my sweet combined league fleet on my own then...

That's the same scenario most League players would be in I believe.

Cheers, Gary

 

[mollari_uk]

I don't play the league and as it currently stands I think it's broken but I don't want to see it go either.

I think the clarification on rules now is great, but I think the league should stay with some bigger penalties.

I thought I liked the AoL but I'm not so convinced now.

 

[Triggy]

The Army of Light is actually seen in plenty of episodes - Shadow Dancing, Into the Fire and Walkabout for a start. The League doesn't really fight together that often, but there is the big occasion of the Dilgar War of course.

I still maintain that the biggest issue is one of balance - a League fleet is currently much more powerful than any of the constituent races. I don't wish to prevent players from taking ships from other races entirely either as this would invalidate many players' miniature collections.

This is why I proposed the halfway suggestion for the AoL of having the list as the only restriction but allowing ships off of the list if the player has first chosen a ship from that race that is on the list (these are generally their core ships anyway).

The League could always be implemented in a similar manner in the Dilgar War supplement. The ISA could have their Allies limited to use through the AoL where they can still use allies but again not just have a free choice to cover any of their weaknesses as they currently can do.

 

[Da Boss]

Another interesting idea:

Perhaps that's the key, my good and dear friend. Give the League races the same allies option as the hated ISA - one FAP at the game's priority from the other League fleets, including the dastardly Raiders. That way you could have the oh-so-desirable Vree scout in your Brakiri fleet, but you couldn't back it with loads of torpedo saucers. Or you could drop a couple of Abbai jammer frigates into a Drazi fleet, or whatever.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[H]

whilst I tend to use a pure Brakiri fleet, I do like the fact that I "could" in theory take some league allies. I would be sad to see this option go on the basis it's deemed "too hard" as such. LDTD's idea makes some sense though, as a Drazi commander would not want to see his efficient fighting force diluted by too many Abbai for instance. the argument would be that you can stull cover your weaknesses with that small amount of FAP, although none of the league fleets has a huge weakness anyway, apart from of course the one ship fleets of the Hurr and Ipsha!!

 

[Greg Smith]

I do like LDtD's idea.

 

[Scipio]

Another interesting idea:

Perhaps that's the key, my good and dear friend. Give the League races the same allies option as the hated ISA - one FAP at the game's priority from the other League fleets, including the dastardly Raiders. That way you could have the oh-so-desirable Vree scout in your Brakiri fleet, but you couldn't back it with loads of torpedo saucers. Or you could drop a couple of Abbai jammer frigates into a Drazi fleet, or whatever.

Thoughts, anyone?

This I like!