Armwrestling and snakes! - opposed rolls?

One trick that Golden Heroes used to use, and that you could try is to just have minor NPCs be noted at taking one, two,or 3 hits before dropping. You could put a minimum "blow thru" or say 3 or 4 points for the hit to count.

You could even do soemthing like a foe can take 1 hit per 10-12 HP
Minimum Threshold = HP/6 or HP/8

The one and two hit baddies worked out great in GH.
 
Archer said:
That is a big help, and a very good idea for publishing scenarios. But I have a question, for those of us who collect these books, and do not want to make marks in them, will you offer a pdf download with the NPCs, so that a GM can print those and mark of HPs on instead?

Sure, I don't see why not. I'll see what I can get posted once I get back from GenCon.

Hyrum.
 
HyrumOWC said:
Archer said:
That is a big help, and a very good idea for publishing scenarios. But I have a question, for those of us who collect these books, and do not want to make marks in them, will you offer a pdf download with the NPCs, so that a GM can print those and mark of HPs on instead?

Sure, I don't see why not. I'll see what I can get posted once I get back from GenCon.

Hyrum.

Thank you :)
 
atgxtg said:
One trick that Golden Heroes used to use, and that you could try is to just have minor NPCs be noted at taking one, two,or 3 hits before dropping. You could put a minimum "blow thru" or say 3 or 4 points for the hit to count.

You could even do soemthing like a foe can take 1 hit per 10-12 HP
Minimum Threshold = HP/6 or HP/8

The one and two hit baddies worked out great in GH.

Also good ideas. Will have to playtest some solutions, to see witch results in the least amount of bookkeeping, while at the same time have the same balance as the default system.
 
atgxtg said:
INteresting, but that leaves the question as to what you do think is for you, and what rpg system isn't "of the past"?

I like the ones coming out of Forge. They all seem to be simple and affordable (most being just about 50 pages and expansions being more exceptions than rule). I don't have the patience to read 300 pages worth of rules, wait for an essential expansion and then maybe start playing. Also most of them also make a clear distinction that they are games, not simulation like Kill Puppies for Satan states for gun fights (notice that there are no capital letters in the rules):

there are no good gun mechanics in roleplaying. probably there can't be because it's just too complicated. set up the shot, pull the trigger, an who the fuck knows? even supposing you hit, bullets spin and tumble and bounce, they roll around your ribs and then out the other side, they mushroom or shatter into bits, the physics of bullets is fucking crazy.

A big difference when comparing to Cyberpunk, which once adverticed itself being the most realistic gun system alive (although throughly broken now and then). Character creation takes about 5 minutes or less if you know what you are doing, and then you can have fun.
 
Mikko Leho said:
I like the ones coming out of Forge. They all seem to be simple and affordable (most being just about 50 pages and expansions being more exceptions than rule). I don't have the patience to read 300 pages worth of rules, wait for an essential expansion and then maybe start playing. Also most of them also make a clear distinction that they are games, not simulation like Kill Puppies for Satan states for gun fights (notice that there are no capital letters in the rules):

I'm not familar with thier stuff. TO me a certain degree of realism is sort of requiredfor a RPG to work. THat degree can vary some, based upon the setting, but if it is too unreal, it lloese verisimiltude, and it becomes difficut to view it as numbers on paper.


Unknown said:
there are no good gun mechanics in roleplaying. probably there can't be because it's just too complicated. set up the shot, pull the trigger, an who the **** knows? even supposing you hit, bullets spin and tumble and bounce, they roll around your ribs and then out the other side, they mushroom or shatter into bits, the physics of bullets is fucking crazy.


I don't know where you got thos first quote from, but for the benfit of the orginal poster, there are a few games that have good gun mechanics. Time Lords probably being the more accurate. The James Bond game was simpl;ier, but gives results very much in line with what I've seen of real world data on firefights. In both gamees, as in life, where you hit, and how well you place the shot, is far more important that what you are using. A .25 ACP bullet through the eye is far more lethal than a .30-06 round through the foot.
For what it's worth, melee combat, with swords, clubs ands all isn't much simplier than firearms. I've see precious few games where a dagger is the dangerous, lethal weapon it is in real life. One good knife hit can potentiall kill a person, but not in most RPGs.


Mikko Leho said:
A big difference when comparing to Cyberpunk, which once adverticed itself being the most realistic gun system alive (although throughly broken now and then). Character creation takes about 5 minutes or less if you know what you are doing, and then you can have fun.

Yeah, I played the first two edition of Cyberpunk and neither were the most realistoc gun system thatr I even encountered. Not even close. I find that in most RPGs character creation can go very fast in you are familar with the rules and have a concvept in mind. THat is one reason why AD&D was so successful, most players owned a set of the books and knew the rules. On the other hand, most of my RQ players didn't own the book, and I had to look stuff up for them. I recall people who spent 3 hours working up characters and complainging that it was too complicated, be quite suprirsed when one of the experienced RQ playersshowed up next week and wrote up a new character in 10 minutes.
 
I think that in matters such as Strength or speed contest, both athletic skill and the characteristic should be used.

For instance, you could state that in a armwrestling, the guy with the highest STR wins, but that STR must first be modified by an Athletic skill roll :

Failure : apply stat/2
Success : apply stat
Critical success : apply Stat*1.5

So, if a STR 10, Athletics 90% human is opposed to a STR 30, Athletics 30% troll, the human will always lose.

But, yes, this is in no way an extrapolation of MRQ rules.
 
atgxtg said:
I don't know where you got thos first quote from, but for the benfit of the orginal poster, there are a few games that have good gun mechanics. Time Lords probably being the more accurate. The James Bond game was simpl;ier, but gives results very much in line with what I've seen of real world data on firefights. In both gamees, as in life, where you hit, and how well you place the shot, is far more important that what you are using. A .25 ACP bullet through the eye is far more lethal than a .30-06 round through the foot.

I am not familiar with systems you mentioned but real life gun physics are one major challenge for any roleplaying system. People who for all reason should have died from gun shot are still living today, one bullet can turn ones insides into jelly while the next shot only manages to scratch the intended victim. Most game system approach this problem by adding more details, which doesn't add any realism just more math.

atgxtg said:
For what it's worth, melee combat, with swords, clubs ands all isn't much simplier than firearms. I've see precious few games where a dagger is the dangerous, lethal weapon it is in real life. One good knife hit can potentiall kill a person, but not in most RPGs.

Difference is that a hand gun is possibly lethal on hands of anyone capable of pulling trigger while knife is less so. Otherwise I agree with you, practicing taking away a knife from someone how knows his/hers stuff is pain in the ass/hands/kneck/etc.

atgxtg said:
I find that in most RPGs character creation can go very fast in you are familar with the rules and have a concvept in mind.

If character creation is taking more than an hour even during first time (minus possible introduction to the world or the rules), then something is wrong in my book. Remember reading posts how character creation can be cut down to two hours in the new Shadowrun :evil:
 
Mikko Leho said:
I am not familiar with systems you mentioned but real life gun physics are one major challenge for any roleplaying system. People who for all reason should have died from gun shot are still living today, one bullet can turn ones insides into jelly while the next shot only manages to scratch the intended victim. Most game system approach this problem by adding more details, which doesn't add any realism just more math.

THat is the problem with a Hit Point approach. What the Bond game did was to have weapons inflict wounds (Stun, Light, Medium, Heavy, Incapacitate, Killed). Depending upon the quality of the hit, the damage that the weapon did would vary. THis meant that a grazing hit from nearly any firearm was only a minor injury, but a well placed shot with even a light weapon could prove fatal.

The game also factored in the biggest thing about firearmsa that most games ditch which is the stun/shock effect of being hit. In the real world very few hits are instantly fatal, but people generally do not react well to be hit. In the Bond game, getting hit forced a Pain Resistance roll to continue acting. This was WIL based, so you ended up with situations like in real life where a thick headed crook can keep going after being shot a couple of times, where someone else might pass out or go into shock over a realitevly light hit.

Time Lords was more complicated in the effects, but it was more realistic. THere were a lot of things that factored into the result.

IMO the problem with most games is that they give a weapon a damage rating, and make that the single, or at least the dominant factor in determining damage, when, realisticaly, it should be the third factor. Location and skill are both much more important.


atgxtg said:
For what it's worth, melee combat, with swords, clubs ands all isn't much simplier than firearms. I've see precious few games where a dagger is the dangerous, lethal weapon it is in real life. One good knife hit can potentiall kill a person, but not in most RPGs.

Mikko Leho said:
Difference is that a hand gun is possibly lethal on hands of anyone capable of pulling trigger while knife is less so. Otherwise I agree with you, practicing taking away a knife from someone how knows his/hers stuff is pain in the ass/hands/kneck/etc.

Not that much difference really. A light handguns like the .25 or .22 or even a .32 aren't any more lethal than a knife-even in unskilled hands. THe real advantages of firearms are that you don't have to get past the foe's defenses (can't parry or dodge bullets), easier learning curve, rate of fire, and that you don't have to get up close and look into the face of the guy you are trying to kill. Firearms are an equalizer in that the skill of the target makes little difference. With a melee weapon the fore can defend and counterattack. Still, the dagger iself is capable of inflict wounds as severe as most bullets.


atgxtg said:
I find that in most RPGs character creation can go very fast in you are familar with the rules and have a concvept in mind.

Mikko Leho said:
If character creation is taking more than an hour even during first time (minus possible introduction to the world or the rules), then something is wrong in my book. Remember reading posts how character creation can be cut down to two hours in the new Shadowrun :evil:

It is hard to generalize that way. In my experience, if character creation is taking more than an hour, something is wrong, but it might not be in the book. I've seen this happen for several reasons. One common one was that we only had one copy of the book, and 8 people who wanted to look up something. It probably too less than a hour each, but we all had to wait for that time. I've also seen people who for some unknown reason, don't bring dice and a pencil, and so borrow from others, all night long. Finally, I've gamed with some people who are just too stupid or too slow to grasp things in under an hour. I know some pople who still can't grasp basic concepts after playing a game for decades.
 
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