Armour vs armour piercing bullets

[AdamWillow]

You've helped me a lot so I come to you with another noob question

Enemy in battledress with Armour of 29.
Team sniper with gauss rifle and special ammo (ARMOUR PIERCING DISCARDING SABOT) has 5D dmg and 21 AP (6 normal plus AP trait equal to triple the number of damage dice it rolls.)

2 situations:
He hits and rolls 22 for dmg. How much dmg do I apply? Armour 29-21 AP, so effective armour is 8 and the final dmg is 22-8=14?
He hits and rolls 14 for dmg. Effective armour is 8, so final dmg is 6?

Additional question.
In CSC you can read:
A weapon must have a listed magazine cost in order to be able to use the ammunition in this chapter. In addition, the following weapons may also not use this ammunition.
One of the listed weapons is Magrail Weapons.
Gauss description: (...) rifles fire high-velocity projectiles using electromagnetic rails.

IMO it is kind of magrail weapon so you can't put special ammo there in the first place. Am I right?

 

[ChrisJ]

Rules as written. You are correct. A Gauss weapon is not a Magrail weapon.

In other fiction Gauss weapons are often described as firing as small diameter projectile or dart - but in the Mongoose version the description makes no mention of that - so while I am personally suspect of the use of APDS in Gauss weapons rules as written permit it. I think the cost is incorrect as APDS is cheaper than HEAP rounds - so I would probably charge double base cost in my games. In your Traveller Universe you are free to include or modify the use of these variant ammunition at your discretion - I for one allow HEAP rounds in snub pistols and accelerator rifles - as this was an option in earlier editions of the rules and at 10x cost per mag is not something to be fired lightly.

If the weapon becomes too dominant - remember it is a big obvious gun banned at Law Level 3 - and totally impractical outside of a war zone - as your PC is shooting a Battledress equipped opponent I can only assume it is a War Zone.

Magrail weapons only refers to the Magrail Pistol and Rifle from CSC. Which is strange as the higher TL weapon is in many ways inferior to the nirvana that is Gauss weaponry.

CJ

 

[Condottiere]

I haven't moved up the gun tech tree yet beyond advanced.

Four millimetres is pretty thin for discarding sabots, and you're really into needle territory, or possibly nail gun.

Presumably, crystaliron is harder than tungsten.

I thought the magrails were shuriken gun equivalents.

 

[MyndkryM]

I thought the magrails were shuriken gun equivalents.

Yep...that is how they are described in CSC.

 

[MyndkryM]

I agree that RAW would allow the Gauss to use specialty ammo...hopefully the 2023 Update to the CSC will correct this.

Until then, I'd house-rule the exclusion list to include Gauss and Gravitic weapons like Mag-weapons are.

First, it's consistent with the Gauss Rifle that was introduced in LBB4, which did not have alternate ammo available. That book also intro'd the ACR, which did offer DS and HE rounds. So let's look at the MGT2 ACR with APDS and your examples above.

The ACR using AP would have 3D damage and the AP3 trait, using APDS; 3D and AP9 trait plus 490m range. Compare that to the Gauss Rifle's 4D, AP5, and 600m range. The interaction between the amount of damage, the ability to penetrate armor, and at what range you can do those things, makes more sense. Even looking at the Sniper Rifle using APDS, it would have an AP14 trait, but the Gauss Sniper Rifle can still put more potential damage further out (almost twice the distance).

It definitely benefits an armor's Protection score; and I don't think that's a bad thing.

Just seems to make more sense to me

 

[AdamWillow]

Thank you guys. Your advices are awesome. As always.

I will house-rule the exlusion.

 

[AdamWillow]

Year has past and I have another question about armours

I try to understand why laser guns are superior to slug throwers in the Traveller setting. It is banned so early on the law level table but they don't give huge advantage IMO to justify this. I propably missing something. Does armour work normaly against energy weapons? If not every slug thrower will be deadlier than a laser gun becasue you can much easier protect yourself againts lasers. Put on a reflec armour (+10 againts lasers) and cloth (+5). Energy guns doesn't have AP trait so even if they do 5D damage they will be much worse than normal pistol (3D) which need to overcome only cloth armour. Not mentioning you can more often have a pistol than a huge laser rifle with big battery in your backpack which authotrities will see from "a mile away"

 

[Reisender]

I try to understand why laser guns are superior to slug throwers in the Traveller setting.

1. "Ammo" capacity.
2. They are easy to recharge. No need to buy ammo.
3. Armour piercing ammo for slug throwers is special and might not be readily available.
4. Yes, armour works normally against energy weapons, with some armour specially designed to be more effective against energy weapons.
5. I feel that in the Official Traveller Universe(OTU) laser weapons are the standard weapons, while slug throwers are for "primitive" worlds, so it is more likely to encounter laser weapons than other weapons. Maybe that is one of the reasons for the early ban.
6. Maybe somebody will correct me on this but I think that Classic Traveller did not have armour piercing ammo and no gauss weapons either, so laser weapons were pretty high end hence the earlier ban.
7. Always keep in mind that Traveller is an old system, so not everything might make sense from a modern point of view.

 

[Condottiere]

Five dice and no recoil for a laser rifle.

More zero gee inclined.

 

[CordwainerFish]

8. No recoil, so more useful in zero G.
9. Gosh darnit, they're just cool.

 

[Condottiere]

In the end, it depends on whether whatever tool you choose, is it most suitable for the environment you plan to employ it in.

Lasers, man portable, might not stand up to the normal rough and tumble of ground combat.

 

[MonsterX]

Not all targets are armoured. And the laser damage tends to be higher for the type of weapon it is. But yes, for most situation slug throwers are better in my opinion.

 

[Saladman]

I try to understand why laser guns are superior to slug throwers in the Traveller setting.

As you've noticed, arguably they're not.

Which is true to one strand of fiction influences on original Traveller. Especially H Beam Piper's grav car and bolt action rifle ascetic.

It also means you might need to stop and think about what direction you want to go for your setting. Drop lasers? Power up lasers? Don't use custom ammo for firearms? Nerf gauss weapons somehow? Any of those would be in line with Marc Miller's original (if unfounded and short-lived) assumption that most or all Traveller GMs would be rolling their own settings rather than playing in his.

 

[Vormaerin]

like, probably the only way lasers are better is that you can recharge them off the fusion power plant of your APC when you are rampaging way ahead of your supply lines and would otherwise be wondering where the next ammo drop is.

But I don't recall seeing laser rifle armed troops getting much airtime in any Traveller supplement. Vehicle mounted and squad support heavy weapons lasers briefly before plasma weapons replace them. But infantry always seems to be ACR > Gauss Rifle

 

[Condottiere]

Reflec does deflect; ablat gets splat.

 

[WHULorigan]

Year has past and I have another question about armours

I try to understand why laser guns are superior to slug throwers in the Traveller setting. It is banned so early on the law level table but they don't give huge advantage IMO to justify this. I propably missing something. Does armour work normaly against energy weapons? If not every slug thrower will be deadlier than a laser gun becasue you can much easier protect yourself againts lasers. Put on a reflec armour (+10 againts lasers) and cloth (+5). Energy guns doesn't have AP trait so even if they do 5D damage they will be much worse than normal pistol (3D) which need to overcome only cloth armour. Not mentioning you can more often have a pistol than a huge laser rifle with big battery in your backpack which authotrities will see from "a mile away"

1. "Ammo" capacity.
2. They are easy to recharge. No need to buy ammo.
3. Armour piercing ammo for slug throwers is special and might not be readily available.
4. Yes, armour works normally against energy weapons, with some armour specially designed to be more effective against energy weapons.
5. I feel that in the Official Traveller Universe (OTU) laser weapons are the standard weapons, while slug throwers are for "primitive" worlds, so it is more likely to encounter laser weapons than other weapons. Maybe that is one of the reasons for the early ban.

There is probably some legacy hold-over in the setting from earlier rulesets. In some earlier rulesets (e.g. MT), lasers had a greater penetration value than most small-arm slug-throwers, and thus were a middle ground between slug-throwers and man-portable plasma/fusion weapons. And as noted, a laser could also be plugged into an independent power source (if defending a stationary position) and have unlimited ammunition as long as it was so employed (and was easily rechargeable as long as you had a power-source - no need to track ammo-supplies). Also, TL13+ Lasers were X-Ray Lasers, which I believe were immune to reflec and aerosols.

Concerning law-level, some things to keep in mind:

1. Lasers leave no ballistics-evidence, which makes them problematic for law enforcement officers investigating crime.
2. Lasers are line-of-sight with no "drop" or reduction in beam power over any meaningful close combat range, meaning that any miss can hit something at a VERY long range away from the combat zone (and potentially set it on fire even if it has lost power due to atmospheric absorption over distance).

1. Maybe somebody will correct me on this but I think that Classic Traveller did not have armour piercing ammo and no gauss weapons either, so laser weapons were pretty high end hence the earlier ban.
2. Always keep in mind that Traveller is an old system, so not everything might make sense from a modern point of view.

CT did NOT have armor piercing ammo (or at least it was subsumed into damage in the weapon descriptions in LBB4: Mercenary, such as in the ACR). CT did have Gauss Rifles described in LBB4: Mercenary. But if you were using only the basic books LBB1-3, then the Laser was the high end of technology and the only recoilless weapon.

 

[Geir]

Well, it really all comes down the the surprisingly unanimous 2036AD (-2485) US Supreme Court ruling in Eastwood vs Brady that united the conservative and liberal justices: All agreed that the Founding Fathers did not intend for laser weapons to be covered by the Second Amendment.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Now that is some Alternate universe you have there...

 

[Condottiere]

1. I've considered the issue for a while, in relation to the era we're playing.

2. One assumes that the Vilani had a more restrictive view on personal weapons and ownership.

3. It's probably more about damage and carry, rather than legality.

4. Four dice groundscale probably the maximum that's tolerated for personal defence.

5. When you consider that a two dice long rifle is potentially fatal.

6. Laser sidearms, you probably have to show need, considering that lasers can blind pilots, and then likely licensed and with a onboard locator, which would cover laser pistols and carbines, being four dice and below, and maybe laser drills and cutting instruments.

7. If it's onboard and within the confines of your starship, you probably could keep and use laser weaponry.

 

[WHULorigan]

And then Marc throws a wrench into it all in T5 (uniquely): T5 has separated-out "Energy Weapons" into two categories, distinguishing between Plasma Weapons and Laser Weapons. Laser Weapons are now Law Level 4 in T5; it is only "Portable" weapons that are Law Level 1 in the T5 Law Level chart.