Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Vormaerin]

I mean, I absolutely think that Traveller makes excessive divisions of technology and not just in this context. We have 15 TLs because that matched the hexadecimal scheme, not because we have that many cool ideas for major technological change.

TL 13 through TL15 is basically just more of the same. You can jump a little farther, you can make your fusion power plant a little smaller, But what's the thing that makes you think society is clearly different now? It's all just 'advanced space age' until you hit TL16 and artificial sentience.

 

[Vormaerin]

Nobody's doing that creative heavy lifting.

Which is what I commented about 4 pages back. And probably people mentioned before that. It's entirely reasonable not to want to do that. But, I also feel that it is also not reasonable to produce several expensive books (Armies, ICS Papers) that just pretend the Imperium is simply a slightly better present day army.

In game terms, the only difference between the Imperial Army's primary weapon and the US Army's primary weapon in Vietnam is longer range, a slightly higher rate of fire (Auto 3 vs Auto 2), and a fancy scope to go with the longer range. The 'reconfigure it into various weapons' is something the Stoner 63 has been able to do since the 1960s.

If one, quite reasonably, does not want to do the heavily lifting, then don't write about the Imperial Army from that perspective.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I mean, I absolutely think that Traveller makes excessive divisions of technology and not just in this context. We have 15 TLs because that matched the hexadecimal scheme, not because we have that many cool ideas for major technological change.

TL 13 through TL15 is basically just more of the same. You can jump a little farther, you can make your fusion power plant a little smaller, But what's the thing that makes you think society is clearly different now? It's all just 'advanced space age' until you hit TL16 and artificial sentience.

Check the differences in Robot Brains from TL-12 to TL-15. That would have vast effects on a society. There are other examples as well, but this is the simplest to illustrate.

 

[Condottiere]

Huh? I don’t understand, where did the garrisoning edge come from?

1. Regardless how ... uh ... realistic ... it actually is, we know the likely composition of an Imperium sector fleet.

2. The Rim War lasted twelve years, and that should be long enough for us to see how large the Imperium Army is, how it's equipped sans a technological level, and how it's organized.

3. If the Zhodani plan on occupying planets, Imperium Intelligence would know most of them, and how many troops they'd need to take along to accomplish this.

4. The Imperium would need, at a minimum, to match this, in order to defend the planet, or take it back.

5. And that would be one way to figure out, the Imperium order of battle, in the Spinward Marches.

6. Or, at least, see if it sort of matches with what's currently written about it.

 

[Condottiere]

Going by current events, the Imperium Army will be heavily mechanized, with a complete range of supporting arms.

They'll have some light mechanized rapid response forces, to take transportation hubs, basically star and space ports.

The Imperium Marine Corps would be totally equipped at technological level fifteen.

 

[MonsterX]

-A lot of the things that would shape a TL 15 vs. TL 12 battle just aren't represented in the rules. Or even a TL 15 vs. TL 7 battle. How do sensors affect the capabilities for example?: RAW, your TL 7 jet fighter might do just fine blowing up battledressed troops and be very hard for them to hit both because of range and its speed and agility. I suspect individual an battledress soldier would have a fire control system in his suit allowing him to target that fighter with a good chance to hit, and even to shoot down its air-to-ground missiles in flight, with a suitable carried weapon, or something embedded in the suit. Or maybe just use ECM to ruin the fighter's targeting. The overall battlefield sensor network the TL 15 soldier is embedded him would probably also give him the chance to shoot first, before the fighter could get its missiles off.

Those sorts of advances probably also give advantages for TL 13 over 12, 14 over 13 and so on. We know from spaceship combat rules that there are incremental sensor, missile to hit, and computer advantages to the higher tech. Experience running these kinds of ship-to-ship fights shows that a TL 15 ship has a big advantage over TL 11 or 12, even if the weapons used are pretty similar. Not that the TL15 ship is never in danger, but it is a major advantage. This stuff isn't clear from the RAW around ground combat.

 

[tomfreshwater]

See LBB:4, it has quite a comprehensive breakdown, repeated in MegaTraveller, and I have summarised it in previous posts. It is well detailed. There is also Striker.



The game that details the war and contains setting material and a section on integration with the role playing game is not canon... I fail to see how

Book 4 gives us a line of text in each category and then does not tell us any more about the imperial army itself.

FFW was written as a game not a sourcebook. Also let’s just consider for a moment the naval forces in the game. Imperial CruRons are almost on a parity in strength with BatRons. How can this, be what cruisers are they using? Now in the very early days some works considered CruRons as having 8 cruisers (FASA periodical; high passage I think?) but it’s well established now that it’s 4 ships per sqd.
Some BatRons jump up in jump rating when damaged, how? I presume these are battle riders, so if a jump drive working on a smaller displacement allows a greater jump than I will take my jump-1 drive out of my 200dTon trader and put it in my 100dTon vessel and it will be jump-2 or maybe even jump-3. That is not how it works.
So it breaks rules and conventions so cannot be canon.
Although I would try to honour as much of it as possible if I was in charge I wouldn’t take it as high canon in the way I think the rest of CT could/should be.

Also yes i think imperial minimum frontline should be TL13 and zhodani minimum would then be TL12. And I would change that too as soon as I am put in charge.
So I am waiting….

 

[Sigtrygg]

Battle dress won't save you from meson weaponry.

It gives you more mobility and the ability to carry all the extra gear that will keep you out of most harms way. If you are caught in the meson zone of efect you are dead, so you trust yo your mobility and electronics to not be in the target zone.

It has infinite penetration. It leaves radiation, but so do the fusion guns. I don't have a problem with combat armor and TL 15 electronics with battle dress being more squad support. But why do we think loose order infantry a la the 21st century would remain viable as the default?

Like I posted upthread, my headcanon for an Imperial Army battledress soldier requires battle dress is more to do with the sheer mass of all the electronics, sensor, EW, and point defence. Each soldier is the human element of a mobile kill net of sensors. drones/robots, loitering weapons etc.

Plus the trooper carries an FGMP14 constructed at TL15 so it is 10% cheaper, a few fire and forget multipurpose missiles and likely and antipersonnel laser

 

[PogoLeaf]

-A lot of the things that would shape a TL 15 vs. TL 12 battle just aren't represented in the rules. Or even a TL 15 vs. TL 7 battle. How do sensors affect the capabilities for example?: RAW, your TL 7 jet fighter might do just fine blowing up battledressed troops and be very hard for them to hit both because of range and its speed and agility. I suspect individual an battledress soldier would have a fire control system in his suit allowing him to target that fighter with a good chance to hit, and even to shoot down its air-to-ground missiles in flight, with a suitable carried weapon, or something embedded in the suit. Or maybe just use ECM to ruin the fighter's targeting. The overall battlefield sensor network the TL 15 soldier is embedded him would probably also give him the chance to shoot first, before the fighter could get its missiles off.

Those sorts of advances probably also give advantages for TL 13 over 12, 14 over 13 and so on. We know from spaceship combat rules that there are incremental sensor, missile to hit, and computer advantages to the higher tech. Experience running these kinds of ship-to-ship fights shows that a TL 15 ship has a big advantage over TL 11 or 12, even if the weapons used are pretty similar. Not that the TL15 ship is never in danger, but it is a major advantage. This stuff isn't clear from the RAW around ground combat.

This is one of those examples that makes me scream internally about why the vehicle book was delayed so long, and all the big things that have been released that rely so heavily on that set of creation rules.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Starship troopers book, like the first chapter, rico is basically on his own for most of the engagement, but still within the support bubble of his team, (if i remember correctly that is) that’s how I imagine BD working, as for the regular dudes, they’d operate much the say as now even if we adjusted the number in a team/squad up or down, the manoeuvring on the ground would be the same, the ways to create openings and gain fire superiority are the same, just the tools are different.

A few things a TL15 battledress would have that is not mentioned in Starship Troopers armour description - the battledress will have drone/robot "wingmen" that will extend the suit's sensor, EW, and comm net plus control over loitering munitions and kill web links to supporting vehicles and ortillery.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Unless you plan to glass a planet, garrisoning one with a resentful population is going to take a lot more than one in a thousand ratio.

In terms of canonical numbers, perhaps the Terran occupation would be far more illuminating, than trying to figure out the Spinward Marches.

The Imperial Army does not occupy every world in the Imperium.

 

[PogoLeaf]

Also BD is hard to counter even with a basic plane, while it can fire a big boom and be out of the air net relatively easily, the BD often has active counter measures, on top of all the other bonuses that come with advanced materials, and such, don’t wanna go too deep since not the place but, me and friends have often spoke on how could we deal with higher tech stuff and normally it’s how you’d expect it, skirmish, ambush, and overwhelm those defenses with smart use of what you got, anti material rifle/big ass boom gun, load with heap or ap and so on. While its not likly you’d win, it is possible, and wargaming it out is always kinda fun

 

[PogoLeaf]

A few things a TL15 battledress would have that is not mentioned in Starship Troopers armour description - the battledress will have drone/robot "wingmen" that will extend the suit's sensor, EW, and comm net plos control over loitering munitions and kill web links to supporting vehicles and ortillery.

True, I was using the example cause it’s one of the better ones in regard to trooper independence in the field, they are expert, and highly trained soldiers that must adapt to situations as they happen at all levels as they may well be the guy in charge of getting the rest out, another example from the book HAH! Unintentionally I assure you.

 

[PogoLeaf]

The Imperial Army does not occupy every world in the Imperium.

I’d say less than 5% and even then it’s a stretch

 

[Sigtrygg]

Book 4 gives us a line of text in each category and then does not tell us any more about the imperial army itself.

So you take the TL15 line, this is expanded on in MT material which dealt a lot more with Imperial vs Imperial

FFW was written as a game not a sourcebook.

It was written by professional wargame designers who made their living writing wargames.

Also let’s just consider for a moment the naval forces in the game. Imperial CruRons are almost on a parity in strength with BatRons. How can this, be what cruisers are they using? Now in the very early days some works considered CruRons as having 8 cruisers (FASA periodical; high passage I think?) but it’s well established now that it’s 4 ships per sqd.

The modern authors are wrong, simple as that. They didn't read the previous canon, or it is a deliberate change, and if it is a delibberate change then it is no longer the same setting.

Some BatRons jump up in jump rating when damaged, how? I presume these are battle riders, so if a jump drive working on a smaller displacement allows a greater jump than I will take my jump-1 drive out of my 200dTon trader and put it in my 100dTon vessel and it will be jump-2 or maybe even jump-3. That is not how it works.

Yes it is, put an A drive in a 200t ship it is jump 1, take it out and put it in 00t ship it is jump 1. Mongoose has changed this with its new jump drive formula (I wonder if it was deliberate intent?) and thus changed the setting.

So it breaks rules and conventions so cannot be canon.

I would argue that the new setting is what is breaking canon, if Mongoose wants to write for the Third Imperium then they should be bound by previous canon, if they want to write their own setting then do so, but stop messing with an established setting.
This then changed when Mongoose took ownership of Traveller. They can re-write and retcon the Third Imperium as much as they like, but up to now that only appears to generate yet more inconsistencies and conflicting setting details thanks to different authors having different visions.

Although I would try to honour as much of it as possible if I was in charge I wouldn’t take it as high canon in the way I think the rest of CT could/should be.

They own it, they can change it, i would just like to see consistency.

Also yes i think imperial minimum frontline should be TL13 and zhodani minimum would then be TL12. And I would change that too as soon as I am put in charge.
So I am waiting….

The Imperium has been TL14 for 400 years by the 1100s...

 

[Sigtrygg]

This is one of those examples that makes me scream internally about why the vehicle book was delayed so long, and all the big things that have been released that rely so heavily on that set of creation rules.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict the new Vehicles book will introduce new stuff that will invalidate the current FFW material...

 

[PogoLeaf]

1. Regardless how ... uh ... realistic ... it actually is, we know the likely composition of an Imperium sector fleet.

2. The Rim War lasted twelve years, and that should be long enough for us to see how large the Imperium Army is, how it's equipped sans a technological level, and how it's organized.

3. If the Zhodani plan on occupying planets, Imperium Intelligence would know most of them, and how many troops they'd need to take along to accomplish this.

4. The Imperium would need, at a minimum, to match this, in order to defend the planet, or take it back.

5. And that would be one way to figure out, the Imperium order of battle, in the Spinward Marches.

6. Or, at least, see if it sort of matches with what's currently written about it.

“He who defends everything, defends nothing”; Sun Tzu, some ancient Chinese guy. But yeah, they would know the likly targets, cause there are certain things you need in order for the attack to continue, you need industry, and you need star ports both up and down, to attack and not take advantage of prebuilt infrastructure is silly, its takes too long and too much resources to build your own in enemy territory on some random planet that can be taken with a tea kettle. So, there would a good chance the strategic reserve forces are preassigned certain objectives while information is gathered by the forward forces, which is what happened in the opening sequence of events, you don’t need every world, just the best ones, which just so happen to be the hardest nuts to crack too. And you don’t defend these world from the ground so much as the ground try to assist the orbital and naval forces in repelling attacks, the worst case is to actually need an army in the first place cause it mean the 1st and second lines of defense are gone.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I mean, I absolutely think that Traveller makes excessive divisions of technology and not just in this context. We have 15 TLs because that matched the hexadecimal scheme, not because we have that many cool ideas for major technological change.

TL 13 through TL15 is basically just more of the same. You can jump a little farther, you can make your fusion power plant a little smaller, But what's the thing that makes you think society is clearly different now? It's all just 'advanced space age' until you hit TL16 and artificial sentience.

I agree completely. Very little is written about how societies and cultures change as they advance from TL7 to TL15.

In part that is because the nature of the future history was to gloss over a lot of it. Terra went from experimenting with TL9 to TL12 in only a few centuries thanks to access to the Ziru Sirka (which itself had deliberately stagnated at TL11 but at least we get some idea of the differnece between Vilani at TL 8, 9, and 11. We then jump forward to a TL15 Third Imperium that has been TL12 for over a thousand years and yet hasn't changed in culture or society in all that time as it advanced to 13, 14, and 15.

Looking back at Earth's history we can see how "TL" progress influenced culture and society, the same should be true of future history.

 

[Sigtrygg]

1. Regardless how ... uh ... realistic ... it actually is, we know the likely composition of an Imperium sector fleet.

Which has no relevance to the regular Imperial Army. The sector fleets are scattered throughout the naval bases of the sector, the Imperial Army is stationed in waystations off board.

2. The Rim War lasted twelve years, and that should be long enough for us to see how large the Imperium Army is, how it's equipped sans a technological level, and how it's organized.

It should be but it didn't go into that detail, the only game we got was the invasion of Terra, there is a lot of data contained within the order of battle for that game but it does not detail all the forces available to the Imperial or Solomani for the whole conflict.

3. If the Zhodani plan on occupying planets, Imperium Intelligence would know most of them, and how many troops they'd need to take along to accomplish this.

How do they know which planets the Zhodani plan to occupy? They don't even know the Zhodani are massing fleets and troops for the invasion.

4. The Imperium would need, at a minimum, to match this, in order to defend the planet, or take it back.

Which is why the regular Imperial Army is committed once the Zhodani have got bogged down with ground actions.

5. And that would be one way to figure out, the Imperium order of battle, in the Spinward Marches.

We already know most of it, first we have the FFW boardgame and now the Mongoose FFW.

6. Or, at least, see if it sort of matches with what's currently written about it.

And that is where the differences come in...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Also BD is hard to counter even with a basic plane, while it can fire a big boom and be out of the air net relatively easily, the BD often has active counter measures, on top of all the other bonuses that come with advanced materials, and such, don’t wanna go too deep since not the place but, me and friends have often spoke on how could we deal with higher tech stuff and normally it’s how you’d expect it, skirmish, ambush, and overwhelm those defenses with smart use of what you got, anti material rifle/big ass boom gun, load with heap or ap and so on. While its not likly you’d win, it is possible, and wargaming it out is always kinda fun

TL15 BD sensors will be able to detect the electronic noise from your TL12 electronics - so your TL12 trooper will have to forgo any equipment with any electronic signature - no electronic sights, no electronics in your rifle, no radios, no night vision, no mobile phones to make tik tok videos...