Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Sigtrygg]

Late to this discussion, and I predict my views won't be popular based on what I've seen thus far, but here goes.

The Imperial Army is standardized at TL12. which is "Average lmperial," and reflects the median of Imperial worlds.

This is why we have the issue, authors with a different vision for the setting than the historical canon.

Before I start my rather length reply:
I admire a great deal of your work
I recognise the setting and Mongoose authors now decide what the setting is
I disagree with some of your interpretations of previous canon
some of your ideas I consider to be just wrong, based on either insufficient knowledge, being advised as to previous canon by people who don't know it well enough themselves, or the old chinese whispers of fanon becoming canon...
and I know nothing will change

The average civilian TL of the Imperium is TL15, that is why it is declared to be a TL15 polity. Worlds on the frontier and scattered through other sectors may have TLs lower than TL15, but they have access to TL15 goods and services and are encouraged to do so, this makes more money for the megacorporations and their shareholders - the nobility.

The Sylean Federation was TL12 one hundred and fifty years before Cleon declared the Imperium. Their Army and Navy were TL12. By IY 300 they were TL13 having fought wars to anex kingdoms and worlds, and lost wars against the Julians.

So according to you and other Mongooses authors the Imperium has maintained a TL12 standard since -150...
total tosh and piffle.

As such, the gear is easier to come by, less expensive, easier to maintain, and more reliable.

And no use against peer adversaries who field TL14 gear, or rebellious worlds that equip their troops to TL13+

Worlds have TLs for a reason and one of them is that they describe what is locally maintainable.

Doesn't matter, the Imperium is a trading empire, its TL15 powerhouses are where the stuff is made and that is where the wealth flows to - why do you think the nobility and the megacorporations have not advanced every world to a TL15 manufacturing base? They should all be a minimum of TL14...

From the CRB: Tech Level "measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability.

And the flaw with that is the same as it was in 1977, it does not take into account membership of a TL15 trading empire...

" The army does not have a dedicated fleet of ships to bring in a constant flow of replacement parts and materiel to keep up their gear. They depend on commercial shipping and the navy to bring in higher tech gear, but that doesn't mean it's standard issue. It means it's available for elite forces and special circumstances.

Another bit of made up nonsense. There are enough megacorporation transports that can be drafted, not to mention the assault squadrons that are expressly designed to move field armies and their equipment and their logistics.

A microcosm of this may be seen in mercenary units, which might have access to higher-tech gear, but often use locally available tech for longer deployments. If you're deployed to a TL8-9 world for a six-month security ticket, the logistics of maintaining your gear is made much more possible when you lean on local capabilities.

Just like the US Army in Iraq and Afghanistan started to use locally produced ammunition, vehicles, body armour, oh, wait, they didn't. They brought it with them and had constant supply chains throughout the occupation.

Think about the setting and the difficulty of supplying an army in the field with the comm lag... you set up a supply chain.

While the Imperial Navy is largely (but not entirely) TL15, the Imperial Army has considerably more personnel than the navy and materiel is expensive and hard to keep up.

A field army costs the same as a BatRon, not even an entire fleet, one Bat Ron.

The army is spread across 11,000 worlds whose governments and legal apparatuses are largely independent of the Imperium. As long as they don't break the few (mostly vague) Imperial laws, they are left to their own devices. The presence of an all-powerful, maximum-tech army on all those worlds is directly opposed to that notion and impedes with the narrative.

This is wrong. The Imperial Army is not present on most Imperial worlds. It is why it took months to mobilise the regular Imperial Army to Efate.

Where necessary — conflict zones, the border, etc. — there are exceptions. If you expect to be in a conflict (i.e., you're in a "hot zone"), armies can be equipped to the maximum Tech Level possible. "Technical Maximum Imperial" is TL15. Even army troops on TL12 worlds in the interior may be trained on TL15 gear over the course of their service, so they are prepared to use superior equipment when called upon to do so, which is rare for 99% of the army.

This is more tosh and piffle, the Imperial Army has the mission of defeating the Imperium's peer opponents - being able to crush rebellions on TL13 and 14 worlds is pretty important too.

Generally speaking, they're not going to "get trashed" on the interior of the Imperium. There are no large TL15 forces waiting to descend upon them from out of the ether, so the expense of maintaining costly and sophisticated weaponry, armor, and vehicles makes little sense. On 95% of worlds, TL12 is enough to do their main jobs: hold territory and keep the peace.

That is not the role of the regular Imperial Army, that is what planetary troops, colonial units, huscarls, megacorporation security, and mercenaries are used for.

Defending against foreign incursions is a highly unlikely scenario, and when it comes, the army has either bulked up in expectation of the larger conflict (advanced intelligence is a thing), or they are prepared to deploy forces with the necessary equipment and the necessary Tech Level to deal with the problem.

Now either you don't know the setting or you are having a laugh. The fourth frontier war was only a few decades ago and the Imperium is aware a fifth is likely any day soon. The Solomani are constantly rattling their sabres...

So, it's logistics, really. Average Imperial means Average Imperial. It is quite a bit easier to maintain than Technical Maximum Imperial, especially across the broad swathe of Imperial Space, and across such a diverse array of independent governments who are linked by free trade, not authoritarian army forces ready to descend upon them.

Average civilian Imperium is TL12, that is why the Imperium is a TL15 empire... this makes no sense at all for the setting as it has existed for over forty years.
Logistics are the job of the Army and Navy logistics departments, they have had centuries to get it right... since IY-150 in point of fact

 

[Terry Mixon]

Late to this discussion, and I predict my views won't be popular based on what I've seen thus far, but here goes.

The Imperial Army is standardized at TL12. which is "Average lmperial," and reflects the median of Imperial worlds. As such, the gear is easier to come by, less expensive, easier to maintain, and more reliable. Worlds have TLs for a reason and one of them is that they describe what is locally maintainable. From the CRB: Tech Level "measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability." The army does not have a dedicated fleet of ships to bring in a constant flow of replacement parts and materiel to keep up their gear. They depend on commercial shipping and the navy to bring in higher tech gear, but that doesn't mean it's standard issue. It means it's available for elite forces and special circumstances.

A microcosm of this may be seen in mercenary units, which might have access to higher-tech gear, but often use locally available tech for longer deployments. If you're deployed to a TL8-9 world for a six-month security ticket, the logistics of maintaining your gear is made much more possible when you lean on local capabilities.

While the Imperial Navy is largely (but not entirely) TL15, the Imperial Army has considerably more personnel than the navy and materiel is expensive and hard to keep up. The army is spread across 11,000 worlds whose governments and legal apparatuses are largely independent of the Imperium. As long as they don't break the few (mostly vague) Imperial laws, they are left to their own devices. The presence of an all-powerful, maximum-tech army on all those worlds is directly opposed to that notion and impedes with the narrative.

Where necessary — conflict zones, the border, etc. — there are exceptions. If you expect to be in a conflict (i.e., you're in a "hot zone"), armies can be equipped to the maximum Tech Level possible. "Technical Maximum Imperial" is TL15. Even army troops on TL12 worlds in the interior may be trained on TL15 gear over the course of their service, so they are prepared to use superior equipment when called upon to do so, which is rare for 99% of the army.

Generally speaking, they're not going to "get trashed" on the interior of the Imperium. There are no large TL15 forces waiting to descend upon them from out of the ether, so the expense of maintaining costly and sophisticated weaponry, armor, and vehicles makes little sense. On 95% of worlds, TL12 is enough to do their main jobs: hold territory and keep the peace. Defending against foreign incursions is a highly unlikely scenario, and when it comes, the army has either bulked up in expectation of the larger conflict (advanced intelligence is a thing), or they are prepared to deploy forces with the necessary equipment and the necessary Tech Level to deal with the problem.

So, it's logistics, really. Average Imperial means Average Imperial. It is quite a bit easier to maintain than Technical Maximum Imperial, especially across the broad swathe of Imperial Space, and across such a diverse array of independent governments who are linked by free trade, not authoritarian army forces ready to descend upon them.

And that will cost them a good chunk of the Marches when a superior force rolls them with TL14 equipment. A real world example of how that works is the invasion of Iraq.

Maybe that’s the plan for the FFW. It would make a different Marches post FFW, and it might be more interesting. I guess we’ll see.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Won't matter post Singularity...

 

[Terry Mixon]

This is why we have the issue, authors with a different vision for the setting than the historical canon.

Before I start my rather length reply:
I admire a great deal of your work
I recognise the setting and Mongoose authors now decide what the setting is
I disagree with some of your interpretations of previous canon
some of your ideas I consider to be just wrong, based on either insufficient knowledge, being advised as to previous canon by people who don't know it well enough themselves, or the old chinese whispers of fanon becoming canon...
and I know nothing will change

The average civilian TL of the Imperium is TL15, that is why it is declared to be a TL15 polity. Worlds on the frontier and scattered through other sectors may have TLs lower than TL15, but they have access to TL15 goods and services and are encouraged to do so, this makes more money for the megacorporations and their shareholders - the nobility.

The Sylean Federation was TL12 one hundred and fifty years before Cleon declared the Imperium. Their Army and Navy were TL12. By IY 300 they were TL13 having fought wars to anex kingdoms and worlds, and lost wars against the Julians.

So according to you and other Mongooses authors the Imperium has maintained a TL12 standard since -150...
total tosh and piffle.


And no use against peer adversaries who field TL14 gear, or rebellious worlds that equip their troops to TL13+

Doesn't matter, the Imperium is a trading empire, its TL15 powerhouses are where the stuff is made and that is where the wealth flows to - why do you think the nobility and the megacorporations have not advanced every world to a TL15 manufacturing base? They should all be a minimum of TL14...

And the flaw with that is the same as it was in 1977, it does not take into account membership of a TL15 trading empire...

Another bit of made up nonsense. There are enough megacorporation transports that can be drafted, not to mention the assault squadrons that are expressly designed to move field armies and their equipment and their logistics.

Just like the US Army in Iraq and Afghanistan started to use locally produced ammunition, vehicles, body armour, oh, wait, they didn't. They brought it with them and had constant supply chains throughout the occupation.

Think about the setting and the difficulty of supplying an army in the field with the comm lag... you set up a supply chain.

A field army costs the same as a BatRon, not even an entire fleet, one Bat Ron.

This is wrong. The Imperial Army is not present on most Imperial worlds. It is why it took months to mobilise the regular Imperial Army to Efate.

This is more tosh and piffle, the Imperial Army has the mission of defeating the Imperium's peer opponents - being able to crush rebellions on TL13 and 14 worlds is pretty important too.

That is not the role of the regular Imperial Army, that is what planetary troops, colonial units, huscarls, megacorporation security, and mercenaries are used for.

Now either you don't know the setting or you are having a laugh. The fourth frontier war was only a few decades ago and the Imperium is aware a fifth is likely any day soon. The Solomani are constantly rattling their sabres...

Average civilian Imperium is TL12, that is why the Imperium is a TL15 empire... this makes no sense at all for the setting as it has existed for over forty years.
Logistics are the job of the Army and Navy logistics departments, they have had centuries to get it right... since IY-150 in point of fact

As @Sigtrygg has said, the Imperium {or what would become it) has been at TL12 for more than a thousand years. As the Imperium steps up and old equipment is replaced due to wear and tear, it would be replaced with more advanced equipment.

See? No huge need to do it all at once with large expense. A gradual improvement of gear just like the Imperium is gradually improving.

The need to be at the top tech level is an important one. You need to be able to crush your opponents without taking huge losses. That kind of black eye would be bad. Enemies, internal and external, need to fear crossing the line and drawing an armed Imperial response. TL12 armed troops with equipment that anyone could have bought in quantity over the last millennium won’t cut it.

I don’t know off the top of my head when the Imperium bumped up to TL13, TL14, and TL15, but I’m confident anyone that wanted to equip their army with that range of gear could and has done so. The argument about logistics is a smokescreen. Drink more coffee and think this through.

 

[Condottiere]

One thing that the Imperium has, is strategic depth.

So logistics work both against them, lines of communications, and for them, invaders over extending themselves.

Since technological level fifteen weapon systems are considered cutting edge, the Imperium might not be too keen to allow their deployment where anyone can easily purloin them.

 

[Terry Mixon]

One thing that the Imperium has, is strategic depth.

So logistics work both against them, lines of communications, and for them, invaders over extending themselves.

Since technological level fifteen weapon systems are considered cutting edge, the Imperium might not be too keen to allow their deployment where anyone can easily purloin them.

Bold of you to assume the Zho don’t already have examples of all that tech.

 

[Condottiere]

If I were the Zhodani, I might not be too keen to let them have a look at my psionic powered, or boosted, equipment.

As regards the Confederation, since they just moved into technological level fifteen, they wouldn't care about stuff that's technological level fourteen making it's way to the Imperium, but might want to obfuscate how far they adopted technological level fifteen.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If it is still canonical you can find the civilian TL thresholds of the Imperium in the MT Referee's Companion , at the end of the technology chapter.

Note that the Imperial military was using TL15 gear well before 1000, and TL14 before 700, likely thanks to purchases from member worlds that had achived those TLs earlier than the Imperium as a whole is declared to have a civilian TL of whatever.

I have to dig out GT Ground Forces - this is where this combined armies silliness comes from, and I have the awful feeling subsequent authors have not converted GTTL 12 to TL15...

MT and earlier sources have a very different model for the regular Imperial Army.

 

[Terry Mixon]

One more comment. Desiring operational parity with the people one is fighting is beyond foolish, and the Imperium is far from being run by fools. As a former soldier, I know that the goal is to crush your enemies with minimal or even no losses of you can manage it. No military force is ever done at less than the tech level that one can manage. To do so invites bloody defeat.

Going by the dates @Sigtrygg provided, there is no reason even garrison duty troops would not be at TL15 gear. It’s been available for a century or more. As older gear wears out, it is replaced by the advanced gear that wins wars, not invites defeat.

If you want to have the Zho trounce the Imperial forces, fine, just don’t use spurious logic to try and justify something that no government would ever do.

And that ridiculous statement that TL12 behaves like TL15 should be dumped like the fecal matter it is. If they are equipped at TL12, they fight like it and will get slaughtered. Anyone not playing their top game will be crushed. War is brutal and unfair. If we sent modern troops in with WWI gear, they would die in droves. The same is true with TL12 vs TL14. Death awaits them.

Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable. Whoever came up with this idea obviously failed to think it through to its logical conclusion. Cutting corners and counting beans in war is a losers game. That’s how the Marches will end up speaking Zhdent.

 

[PogoLeaf]

Keep in mind as well in regards to supply line the 3i have the same logistical constraints as everyone else, their size isn’t a factor as much as you think as they have depot systems in key locations to ensure “swift” supply is established in all directions for all branches of their military. I like to think of it as the Roman Empire in comparison because they kinda move from “base/fort” to “base/fort” as they shuffle stuff forward

 

[Condottiere]

Someone could try calculating the exact amount of tonnage capacity the Imperium military has available, to transfer troops and equipment, and how much they can take over from trade.

 

[MonsterX]

I am reluctant to chime in again in defense of not having TL 15 for all Imperial army units, always but I feel compelled back into the fray.

Also, I want to qualified this at the beginning that I don't think TL 12 for Imperial Army units makes sense really either - certainly not as a standard.

It is absolutely true that all well equipped armies in the modern developed countries have equipment more or less at their TL level, or maybe sometimes one below it. Sometimes we see exceptional items maybe 2 TLs lower. At least if you look at equipment at the "sharp end", and restrict yourself to the developed world. In my country, the active duty forces have lots of the latest high tech gear, but we are ready to take that force from 30000 to 280000 in a matter of weeks, and I know a lot of the reserves would have stuff manufactured 50 years ago. It is not as good and service men and women would die as a result, but that's just a financial reality. You can argue that the Imperium is bigger so it has more money, but it also has to equip a LOT of people over a huge area, and most money goes to the fleet, which is ridiculously expensive, and a lot of production is kept for local forces too.

The Imperium is not a uniformly developed polity. Little bits of it are TL 15, while most of it is not, and quite a lot is downright primitive. Some of its worlds are high pop, but a lot are pretty empty. Put the Traveller map influence map on, it show the Imperium is big and has a lot of powerful worlds, but very few in the Marches. And compared to the Hierate - the Imperium might be in trouble. Swordworlds are actually pretty beefy, good thing their TL is so low.

Stockpiles are a big thing for the Imperium, and I would definitely say it makes sense because the March's own production is not going to sustain a big war for long. Sure, you can say these worlds have billions and they do - but at this scale, it is just not that much. They should stockpile lots of TL 15 gear in the Marches because their TL 15 industrial capacity there is low; in fact their industrial capacity there is low tout court.

Big wars run through stockpiles like nobody's business, however. However much you stockpile, it will be gone fast. And if you put too much stockpiled near the front, it is likely to get captured. So you have to leave the front line units with limited stockpiles and try to get the munitions through. As much as you can rely on local production, you don't have to do that, so everyone that can will try to do that as much as they can - not that they won't prefer to get TL 15 stuff from supply ships, but because sometimes those ships won't make it through.

Also, TL of the gear does not necessarily match the doctrine. The Sword Worlds are not going to face TL 15 Imperials thinking like they are TL 10. They know what they are going up against and will devise strategies which make sense in that context. The same will be the case for other lower TL forces; they'll have some info about their adversaries' tech and will try to think of ways to counter it.

It is also not clear that the difference between TL 15 and TL 12 is as stark as the difference between TL 7 and TL 4, in military terms. If it were, it would be suicide for TL 12 forces to resist, but not all techs have uniform development of all tech aspects, so we can't be sure of that. We only know what stuff in the books is available. The effect of these different techs, and how the doctrines change at different TL levels, and how they force deal with this is something that should have been gone over in this book.

In short, obviously TL 15 is what the Imperium should equip its active duty army at as a default, and it should try to maintain this as much as it can during the war. But wars between near-peer adversaries aren't the sort of wars where you get to decide if you have enough industrial production to always have the gear you want at your disposal. A lot of what goes on is improvising and desperately pulling together what you can. This TL 12 as a standard is problematic, but so is the TL 15 or everyone surrenders or falls over dead idea. Yeah, it means heavy losses if the enemy has better tech that you, but that might just be the situation. And he also has his own logistics problem, probably a lot worse actualy, which could even things out.