Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah, it’s rediculous. Just another ill considered, half baked idea that they want to be canon. They want it both ways and end up with a mess.
Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata
- Thread starter ottarrus
- Start date
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
The book does mention some high-TL imperial gear, such as battle management systems on p.44-45 (Imperial mil-spec version being TL15 and presumably in widespread use) and the bit on p.82 regarding the Brize light grav vehicle (but presumably valid for other vehicles as well) talking about the ’black box’ configuration anti-missile system and sensor package being higher TL.
Yeah, but that's just BS. If it has that stuff in significant quantities, the army is not operating at TL12, so saying so is just silly.
It would be totally fine if the rules said that the Imperium has chosen to equip the army with chemical slug throwers (aka ACRs) so they can have standardization across the range of planetary armies contributing. Everyone uses a rifle with Imperial 5.56mm rounds. Everyone recruited is familiar with the basic way such a weapon works, etc. The ACR you get as a soldier on Rhylanor (TL15) is more sophisticated and effective than the one you trained with if you come from Aramanx (TL7), but it's the same basic weapons platform.
Then have the "Imperial Army" essentially be a logistics and C&C cadre that operates the electronic warfare, logistics, C&C, and other sophisticated elements that make the army operate as a TL15 force if the Colonial Army/Regular Army distinction just has to go away for some reason.
But insisting it is a TL12 army that counts as TL15 is disingenuous. Traveller mass combat makes heavy use of TL as an effectiveness modifier. What TL is the Imperial Army if using the Mercenary combat rules (don't laugh)? What if I'm trying to infiltrate an Imperial Army facility? What TL do I use when my players want to bypass the sensors or hack the comms, because gear TL differential is a modifier there, too.
The US Army would not be TL6 if we replaced the M4 with M1s. The M4 is obviously a lot better than the M1, but the Army's communications, electronic warfare, sensors, anti-air and anti-tank capabilities would still be light years more effective than what was available in WW2. I would still call it a TL8 army.
It would be totally fine if the rules said that the Imperium has chosen to equip the army with chemical slug throwers (aka ACRs) so they can have standardization across the range of planetary armies contributing. Everyone uses a rifle with Imperial 5.56mm rounds. Everyone recruited is familiar with the basic way such a weapon works, etc. The ACR you get as a soldier on Rhylanor (TL15) is more sophisticated and effective than the one you trained with if you come from Aramanx (TL7), but it's the same basic weapons platform.
Then have the "Imperial Army" essentially be a logistics and C&C cadre that operates the electronic warfare, logistics, C&C, and other sophisticated elements that make the army operate as a TL15 force if the Colonial Army/Regular Army distinction just has to go away for some reason.
But insisting it is a TL12 army that counts as TL15 is disingenuous. Traveller mass combat makes heavy use of TL as an effectiveness modifier. What TL is the Imperial Army if using the Mercenary combat rules (don't laugh)? What if I'm trying to infiltrate an Imperial Army facility? What TL do I use when my players want to bypass the sensors or hack the comms, because gear TL differential is a modifier there, too.
The US Army would not be TL6 if we replaced the M4 with M1s. The M4 is obviously a lot better than the M1, but the Army's communications, electronic warfare, sensors, anti-air and anti-tank capabilities would still be light years more effective than what was available in WW2. I would still call it a TL8 army.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
What you want is a rugged laser rifle, and a solar energy generator.
And voice over internet application.
And voice over internet application.
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
Electronics (sensors, computers, comms…) tend to be among the most important and most TL dependent equipment, so replacing them with high TL equivs while saving money and manufacturing capabilities by keeping TL ’lower, but good enough’ elsewhere does make sense imho.
Sure, but then you are NOT a TL12 army.
The difference between the TL6 US Army of WW2 and the modern TL8 US Army is not having M4s instead of M1s.
It is entirely reasonable to say that the Imperial Army is TL15 even if it uses an Advanced Combat Rifle and Combat Armor instead of Battledress and Plasma rifles. Because that's the level of their communications, sensors, battlefield management, electronic warfare, medical, and everything else.
It is not reasonable or honest to slap a TL12 rating on the Imperial Army and then just say "But use the TL15 combat modifiers because". Commit to the bit. If they fight like a TL15 army, then say they are TL15. If they aren't TL15, then have your doctrine explain how they deal with being significantly inferior to their opponents.
The difference between the TL6 US Army of WW2 and the modern TL8 US Army is not having M4s instead of M1s.
It is entirely reasonable to say that the Imperial Army is TL15 even if it uses an Advanced Combat Rifle and Combat Armor instead of Battledress and Plasma rifles. Because that's the level of their communications, sensors, battlefield management, electronic warfare, medical, and everything else.
It is not reasonable or honest to slap a TL12 rating on the Imperial Army and then just say "But use the TL15 combat modifiers because". Commit to the bit. If they fight like a TL15 army, then say they are TL15. If they aren't TL15, then have your doctrine explain how they deal with being significantly inferior to their opponents.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It would help if the nature of battlefields at different TLs were outlined, discussed, and then doctrine necessity explained.
My personal headcanon for a TL15 Imperial Army soldier:
battledress constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
FGMP-14 constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
the battledress has an AI battlefield computer, map box, radio, radar, ladar, radio jammer, EW suite, point defence interceptors, a dedicated robot/drone network, a rapid pulse laser point defence system, smoke/chaff dispensers, decoys, anti-laser cans, chill cans, stealth, active camouflage, anti-personnel laser
this is necessitated by the nature of the battlefield - the soldier has to be as self sufficient as possible because meson artillery, hunter robot/drones and the like make concentrations of troops easy targets. Each soldier carries an electronics array compliment that makes the electronics carried by something like an F-35 look like a valve radio...
the armour is as mobile as possible because movement is crucial to survival
the countermeasures and defences are proof against most robot/drone/remote munitions provided they do not attack in numbers that can overwhelm the defences
the "cloud" of robot/drone wingmen provide greater battlespace volume coverage, more lethal weapon options than can be carried by the suit alone
My personal headcanon for a TL15 Imperial Army soldier:
battledress constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
FGMP-14 constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
the battledress has an AI battlefield computer, map box, radio, radar, ladar, radio jammer, EW suite, point defence interceptors, a dedicated robot/drone network, a rapid pulse laser point defence system, smoke/chaff dispensers, decoys, anti-laser cans, chill cans, stealth, active camouflage, anti-personnel laser
this is necessitated by the nature of the battlefield - the soldier has to be as self sufficient as possible because meson artillery, hunter robot/drones and the like make concentrations of troops easy targets. Each soldier carries an electronics array compliment that makes the electronics carried by something like an F-35 look like a valve radio...
the armour is as mobile as possible because movement is crucial to survival
the countermeasures and defences are proof against most robot/drone/remote munitions provided they do not attack in numbers that can overwhelm the defences
the "cloud" of robot/drone wingmen provide greater battlespace volume coverage, more lethal weapon options than can be carried by the suit alone
This whole thing smacks of not wanting to actually address what a TL14 or TL15 battlefield would look like. I can understand that, it's certainly likely to be as different from how we fight today as how we fight today is different from how Caesar's Legions fought. And that's a huge mental tax to deal with, not to mention undermining the expertise that makes one want to write about sci fi military stuff in the first place.
Perhaps, but chaining yourself down isn’t exactly the best way to approach this, especially since from what I can see, the majority of people have seen the issue glaring at them without much effort. It should probably be addressed properly considering how important these details are and how they impact many of the campaigns that will use the book as a resource. And this doesn’t even begin to highlight how much someone who is familiar with how the game flow, the universe and has an above average knowledge of military tactics and such will completely run rings around such a deliberately limited force.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
and so do most of the players and Referees who aren't smart enough to play by the rules. (Including the added confusion due to no one actually knowing what the rules are since the books are no help at all with definitions of terms.)
Guess what that "Critical Area" is? Hint. It's the military. The military is TL-15 eventhough most of the planets behind the claw are not.
Now do you guys understand why I have been screaming My head off about words needing to mean something?
Stupid crap like this is why!!!! UWPs mean nothing, TL means nothing. What mechanics in the game actually mean what they mean??? Discussions like this are what happens when there is not one meaning for each term. Definitions are not opened-ended. A UWP Pop code of 2 does not allow you to have millions of sophonts on the planet, no matter what stupid and lazy writers do, but apparently it does because here is more evidence. Now the Imperial Army is TL-12, but has TL-15 gear. That TL-15 gear makes them TL-15. So again, writers are stupid and editors are lazy. Do better guys. I know you guys can.
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You need to do better too, calling people stupid or lazy isn’t the way dude, this isn’t something you can learn in a few afternoons. As for the UWP, it was always more of a guideline than a hard rule, it’s assist with world building, there are a few examples where the pop code says one thing but reality is another due to politics and how you count people, my understanding is that it’s a census of citizens, not and the average of visitors both short and long term, that however is neither her nor there for this discussion.
I think a possible solution to this is better retro tech rules, so we may understand what the benefits or and drawbacks are outside of electronics, and some concessions in the direction of pace, and in universe realities of logistical constraints, and how much time and effort the powers that be are willing to place on training and education of their forces.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Agreed and anyone who is a new player/Referee asking questions, I will have My utmost patience. People who claim to be knowledgeable, but can't read the books? No, for them I have no patience.
The UWP is exactly as you describe it and if it was left as that, it can work fine. What happens though when you now need to use those "inaccurate" numbers to plug it into a calculation in the WBH? All of a sudden you need those numbers to actually means something and not be an only in-universe number. If it is used mechanically in game formulas, then it has to be an out of game number. The problem is that Traveller seems to want it both ways and so it works for none of them.
I would agree with this. Some of it has been done already, but some parts are hard to locate in the books and others haven't been considered yet.
To what purpose? Mongoose reads these forums and is aware of our opinions. This community is a small fraction of the total Traveller player base. And even within that small community, not every one agrees that this is a problem.
And even if you accept that it is a problem, there is lots of ways to fix it. They need a new ground combat system anyway, so they could write one that isn't so "may the best TL win" so that the statement about being equal to the Zhos is actually true.
Or they could clarify that the Imperial Army is, in fact, a patchwork of militia units that, on average, are TL 12. So Vice Marshal Lord Bryor has his 25 divisions of TL 15 soldiers and the reinforcements are Porozlo's 75 divisions of TL 7 troops. And the standing "Army" is Headquarters units that are trained at integrating the various logistics and command & control elements of these disparate units.
Fuzzy isn't a problem. IMHO, it is that they make a big deal about it not being as advanced as it could be and then saying "But it's just as good as if it was that advanced." They say "totally not fuzzy, definitely this!" and then saying treat it like its fuzzy. They didn't have to say the army was TL12. They didn't give any stats for any mass combat system for any of these units, so what's the point of trying to give an overall TL instead of just discussing the gear and label it at the earliest TL it gets deployed it, like all other gear in Traveller?
I vehemently dislike the argument that everything needs to be nailed down and given a cast in imperishable crystal meaning. We have TL15 battleships being made obsolete by other TL15 battleships. There's no mechanics to support that and that's fine. TL15 is a range and you can imagine it having iterations without requiring there to be rules supporting that.
But if you do choose to nail something down, then don't make it wishy-washy. Same thing with world building. The UWP is intentionally flexible. But once you write up the details on that world, you do need to explain exactly what you mean and how that relates to the shorthand. So if you make a big issue of how logistics & politics force the Imperial Army to be second rate, then run with that. Or give more than half a sentence to how they manage to actually perform as well or better than the Zhos despite that.
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meh, I dunno, this seems to be quite the spicy topic, I’ve rarely seen one that so many people argue over so passionately and potentially agree on almost all points with each other its just the language and weird contradiction (the tech ruling) that people are most concerned about. And this has the potential of tying hands for much of what will be a flagship series for many campaigns to come. I’m not used to forums or participating in the dialogue outside of the purely theoretical or in universe discussions on everything. Anyway, I’ve voiced my opinion on it, here and in disc, and can only hope that the issue is addressed
Sorry, am late to the party.
I am inclined to agree with you on almost all points save one, they powers that be rarely agree as they are all eeking for more, always, prime example is the spinward sector duke or lack thereof, and the fiasco that follows with the bickering and political machinations of dumb dumbs with more power than brains.
Just to ensure the page indeed the same, the army should and would be a minimum of TL12 and would sue weapons equivalent or superior to the force they are fighting, logistics are indeed, complicated but the prime example of the wrong train of thought, is the over reliance on the ACR, for what ever reason, a Gauss Rifle is TL12, and would be the standard long arm of the infantry, especially given the greatest threat is a force that is largely immune to anything less than higher tech weaponry. Just as an example, and I’ve no wish to enflame the spirits by delving too deep in my assertion. I just think it’s a level of practical sense that it would follow that logic.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I vehemently disagree with this statement. The Fluff says they are obsolete, not the mechanics. TL-15 is only a "range" because the fluff says so, but the mechanics do not support that. So, now We have a universe that cannot be supported by its so-called laws of physics, aka the rules.
You can imagine anything you want and be just fine, right up to the point that you actually have to run a scene and use the rules, then your "imagining" is going to run into the cold, hard reality of the RAW. If your mechanics do not support what the fluff says, then the fluff is wrong or the mechanics are wrong. Mechanics and fluff must be in agreement to have a good system and a good setting.
paltrysum
Emperor Mongoose
Late to this discussion, and I predict my views won't be popular based on what I've seen thus far, but here goes.
The Imperial Army is standardized at TL12, which is "Average lmperial," and reflects the median of Imperial worlds. As such, the gear is easier to come by, less expensive, easier to maintain, and more reliable. Worlds have TLs for a reason and one of them is that they describe what is locally maintainable. From the CRB: Tech Level "measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability." The army does not have a dedicated fleet of ships to bring in a constant flow of replacement parts and materiel to keep up their gear. They depend on commercial shipping and the navy to bring in higher tech gear, but that doesn't mean it's standard issue. It means it's available for elite forces and special circumstances.
A microcosm of this may be seen in mercenary units, which might have access to higher-tech gear, but often use locally available tech for longer deployments. If you're deployed to a TL8-9 world for a six-month security ticket, the logistics of maintaining your gear is made much more possible when you lean on local capabilities.
While the Imperial Navy is largely (but not entirely) TL15, the Imperial Army has considerably more personnel than the navy and materiel is expensive and hard to keep up. The army is spread across 11,000 worlds whose governments and legal apparatuses are largely independent of the Imperium. As long as they don't break the few (mostly vague) Imperial laws, they are left to their own devices. The presence of an all-powerful, maximum-tech army on all those worlds is directly opposed to that notion and impedes with the narrative.
Where necessary — conflict zones, the border, etc. — there are exceptions. If you expect to be in a conflict (i.e., you're in a "hot zone"), armies can be equipped to the maximum Tech Level possible. "Technical Maximum Imperial" is TL15. Even army troops on TL12 worlds in the interior may be trained on TL15 gear over the course of their service, so they are prepared to use superior equipment when called upon to do so, which is rare for 99% of the army.
Generally speaking, they're not going to "get trashed" on the interior of the Imperium. There are no large TL15 forces waiting to descend upon them from out of the ether, so the expense of maintaining costly and sophisticated weaponry, armor, and vehicles makes little sense. On 95% of worlds, TL12 is enough to do their main jobs: hold territory and keep the peace. Defending against foreign incursions is a highly unlikely scenario, and when it comes, the army has either bulked up in expectation of the larger conflict (advanced intelligence is a thing), or they are prepared to deploy forces with the necessary equipment and the necessary Tech Level to deal with the problem.
So, it's logistics, really. Average Imperial means Average Imperial. It is quite a bit easier to maintain than Technical Maximum Imperial, especially across the broad swathe of Imperial Space, and across such a diverse array of independent governments who are linked by free trade, not authoritarian army forces ready to descend upon them.
The Imperial Army is standardized at TL12, which is "Average lmperial," and reflects the median of Imperial worlds. As such, the gear is easier to come by, less expensive, easier to maintain, and more reliable. Worlds have TLs for a reason and one of them is that they describe what is locally maintainable. From the CRB: Tech Level "measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability." The army does not have a dedicated fleet of ships to bring in a constant flow of replacement parts and materiel to keep up their gear. They depend on commercial shipping and the navy to bring in higher tech gear, but that doesn't mean it's standard issue. It means it's available for elite forces and special circumstances.
A microcosm of this may be seen in mercenary units, which might have access to higher-tech gear, but often use locally available tech for longer deployments. If you're deployed to a TL8-9 world for a six-month security ticket, the logistics of maintaining your gear is made much more possible when you lean on local capabilities.
While the Imperial Navy is largely (but not entirely) TL15, the Imperial Army has considerably more personnel than the navy and materiel is expensive and hard to keep up. The army is spread across 11,000 worlds whose governments and legal apparatuses are largely independent of the Imperium. As long as they don't break the few (mostly vague) Imperial laws, they are left to their own devices. The presence of an all-powerful, maximum-tech army on all those worlds is directly opposed to that notion and impedes with the narrative.
Where necessary — conflict zones, the border, etc. — there are exceptions. If you expect to be in a conflict (i.e., you're in a "hot zone"), armies can be equipped to the maximum Tech Level possible. "Technical Maximum Imperial" is TL15. Even army troops on TL12 worlds in the interior may be trained on TL15 gear over the course of their service, so they are prepared to use superior equipment when called upon to do so, which is rare for 99% of the army.
Generally speaking, they're not going to "get trashed" on the interior of the Imperium. There are no large TL15 forces waiting to descend upon them from out of the ether, so the expense of maintaining costly and sophisticated weaponry, armor, and vehicles makes little sense. On 95% of worlds, TL12 is enough to do their main jobs: hold territory and keep the peace. Defending against foreign incursions is a highly unlikely scenario, and when it comes, the army has either bulked up in expectation of the larger conflict (advanced intelligence is a thing), or they are prepared to deploy forces with the necessary equipment and the necessary Tech Level to deal with the problem.
So, it's logistics, really. Average Imperial means Average Imperial. It is quite a bit easier to maintain than Technical Maximum Imperial, especially across the broad swathe of Imperial Space, and across such a diverse array of independent governments who are linked by free trade, not authoritarian army forces ready to descend upon them.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Except this is no longer true as Vincennes fields TL-16 units and they are part of the Imperium, so to call TL-16 the Technical Imperial Maximum is disengenuous.
During the Rebellion Era, what were the TLs of the forces involved? These are all what you refer to as the "interior of the Imperium". If they were not TL-12, then your theory does not seem to hold up to the story already told. (unless, of course, Mongoose is completely changing Charted Space.) Personally, I love this theory. Now all of My players have ships and gear better than the Imperial Army and Navy.
Imperial Average means civilian average, not military average. Most of the population of a world will not have access to military technology just like they don't on current Earth either. No matter how rich I am, as a civilian, I will never be able to buy an AWACS.
Problem is most of the thier near peer threats are higher than tl12, so while yes there is something to be said about not over producing tech higher than 12, it’s silly to intentionally weaken yourself in what is a good example of the whole “not have and need and not need and have” phrase, there are a number of platitudes that can be used in this matter. Now I get it, most of the army dosnt need it, but, the border units do, most assuredly they do, especially against the primary threat of the 3i, the zhodani.
