Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah, it’s rediculous. Just another ill considered, half baked idea that they want to be canon. They want it both ways and end up with a mess.
Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata
- Thread starter ottarrus
- Start date
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
The book does mention some high-TL imperial gear, such as battle management systems on p.44-45 (Imperial mil-spec version being TL15 and presumably in widespread use) and the bit on p.82 regarding the Brize light grav vehicle (but presumably valid for other vehicles as well) talking about the ’black box’ configuration anti-missile system and sensor package being higher TL.
Yeah, but that's just BS. If it has that stuff in significant quantities, the army is not operating at TL12, so saying so is just silly.
It would be totally fine if the rules said that the Imperium has chosen to equip the army with chemical slug throwers (aka ACRs) so they can have standardization across the range of planetary armies contributing. Everyone uses a rifle with Imperial 5.56mm rounds. Everyone recruited is familiar with the basic way such a weapon works, etc. The ACR you get as a soldier on Rhylanor (TL15) is more sophisticated and effective than the one you trained with if you come from Aramanx (TL7), but it's the same basic weapons platform.
Then have the "Imperial Army" essentially be a logistics and C&C cadre that operates the electronic warfare, logistics, C&C, and other sophisticated elements that make the army operate as a TL15 force if the Colonial Army/Regular Army distinction just has to go away for some reason.
But insisting it is a TL12 army that counts as TL15 is disingenuous. Traveller mass combat makes heavy use of TL as an effectiveness modifier. What TL is the Imperial Army if using the Mercenary combat rules (don't laugh)? What if I'm trying to infiltrate an Imperial Army facility? What TL do I use when my players want to bypass the sensors or hack the comms, because gear TL differential is a modifier there, too.
The US Army would not be TL6 if we replaced the M4 with M1s. The M4 is obviously a lot better than the M1, but the Army's communications, electronic warfare, sensors, anti-air and anti-tank capabilities would still be light years more effective than what was available in WW2. I would still call it a TL8 army.
It would be totally fine if the rules said that the Imperium has chosen to equip the army with chemical slug throwers (aka ACRs) so they can have standardization across the range of planetary armies contributing. Everyone uses a rifle with Imperial 5.56mm rounds. Everyone recruited is familiar with the basic way such a weapon works, etc. The ACR you get as a soldier on Rhylanor (TL15) is more sophisticated and effective than the one you trained with if you come from Aramanx (TL7), but it's the same basic weapons platform.
Then have the "Imperial Army" essentially be a logistics and C&C cadre that operates the electronic warfare, logistics, C&C, and other sophisticated elements that make the army operate as a TL15 force if the Colonial Army/Regular Army distinction just has to go away for some reason.
But insisting it is a TL12 army that counts as TL15 is disingenuous. Traveller mass combat makes heavy use of TL as an effectiveness modifier. What TL is the Imperial Army if using the Mercenary combat rules (don't laugh)? What if I'm trying to infiltrate an Imperial Army facility? What TL do I use when my players want to bypass the sensors or hack the comms, because gear TL differential is a modifier there, too.
The US Army would not be TL6 if we replaced the M4 with M1s. The M4 is obviously a lot better than the M1, but the Army's communications, electronic warfare, sensors, anti-air and anti-tank capabilities would still be light years more effective than what was available in WW2. I would still call it a TL8 army.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
What you want is a rugged laser rifle, and a solar energy generator.
And voice over internet application.
And voice over internet application.
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
Electronics (sensors, computers, comms…) tend to be among the most important and most TL dependent equipment, so replacing them with high TL equivs while saving money and manufacturing capabilities by keeping TL ’lower, but good enough’ elsewhere does make sense imho.
Sure, but then you are NOT a TL12 army.
The difference between the TL6 US Army of WW2 and the modern TL8 US Army is not having M4s instead of M1s.
It is entirely reasonable to say that the Imperial Army is TL15 even if it uses an Advanced Combat Rifle and Combat Armor instead of Battledress and Plasma rifles. Because that's the level of their communications, sensors, battlefield management, electronic warfare, medical, and everything else.
It is not reasonable or honest to slap a TL12 rating on the Imperial Army and then just say "But use the TL15 combat modifiers because". Commit to the bit. If they fight like a TL15 army, then say they are TL15. If they aren't TL15, then have your doctrine explain how they deal with being significantly inferior to their opponents.
The difference between the TL6 US Army of WW2 and the modern TL8 US Army is not having M4s instead of M1s.
It is entirely reasonable to say that the Imperial Army is TL15 even if it uses an Advanced Combat Rifle and Combat Armor instead of Battledress and Plasma rifles. Because that's the level of their communications, sensors, battlefield management, electronic warfare, medical, and everything else.
It is not reasonable or honest to slap a TL12 rating on the Imperial Army and then just say "But use the TL15 combat modifiers because". Commit to the bit. If they fight like a TL15 army, then say they are TL15. If they aren't TL15, then have your doctrine explain how they deal with being significantly inferior to their opponents.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It would help if the nature of battlefields at different TLs were outlined, discussed, and then doctrine necessity explained.
My personal headcanon for a TL15 Imperial Army soldier:
battledress constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
FGMP-14 constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
the battledress has an AI battlefield computer, map box, radio, radar, ladar, radio jammer, EW suite, point defence interceptors, a dedicated robot/drone network, a rapid pulse laser point defence system, smoke/chaff dispensers, decoys, anti-laser cans, chill cans, stealth, active camouflage, anti-personnel laser
this is necessitated by the nature of the battlefield - the soldier has to be as self sufficient as possible because meson artillery, hunter robot/drones and the like make concentrations of troops easy targets. Each soldier carries an electronics array compliment that makes the electronics carried by something like an F-35 look like a valve radio...
the armour is as mobile as possible because movement is crucial to survival
the countermeasures and defences are proof against most robot/drone/remote munitions provided they do not attack in numbers that can overwhelm the defences
the "cloud" of robot/drone wingmen provide greater battlespace volume coverage, more lethal weapon options than can be carried by the suit alone
My personal headcanon for a TL15 Imperial Army soldier:
battledress constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
FGMP-14 constructed at TL15 - cheaper than TL14
the battledress has an AI battlefield computer, map box, radio, radar, ladar, radio jammer, EW suite, point defence interceptors, a dedicated robot/drone network, a rapid pulse laser point defence system, smoke/chaff dispensers, decoys, anti-laser cans, chill cans, stealth, active camouflage, anti-personnel laser
this is necessitated by the nature of the battlefield - the soldier has to be as self sufficient as possible because meson artillery, hunter robot/drones and the like make concentrations of troops easy targets. Each soldier carries an electronics array compliment that makes the electronics carried by something like an F-35 look like a valve radio...
the armour is as mobile as possible because movement is crucial to survival
the countermeasures and defences are proof against most robot/drone/remote munitions provided they do not attack in numbers that can overwhelm the defences
the "cloud" of robot/drone wingmen provide greater battlespace volume coverage, more lethal weapon options than can be carried by the suit alone
This whole thing smacks of not wanting to actually address what a TL14 or TL15 battlefield would look like. I can understand that, it's certainly likely to be as different from how we fight today as how we fight today is different from how Caesar's Legions fought. And that's a huge mental tax to deal with, not to mention undermining the expertise that makes one want to write about sci fi military stuff in the first place.
Perhaps, but chaining yourself down isn’t exactly the best way to approach this, especially since from what I can see, the majority of people have seen the issue glaring at them without much effort. It should probably be addressed properly considering how important these details are and how they impact many of the campaigns that will use the book as a resource. And this doesn’t even begin to highlight how much someone who is familiar with how the game flow, the universe and has an above average knowledge of military tactics and such will completely run rings around such a deliberately limited force.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
and so do most of the players and Referees who aren't smart enough to play by the rules. (Including the added confusion due to no one actually knowing what the rules are since the books are no help at all with definitions of terms.)
Guess what that "Critical Area" is? Hint. It's the military. The military is TL-15 eventhough most of the planets behind the claw are not.
Now do you guys understand why I have been screaming My head off about words needing to mean something?
Stupid crap like this is why!!!! UWPs mean nothing, TL means nothing. What mechanics in the game actually mean what they mean??? Discussions like this are what happens when there is not one meaning for each term. Definitions are not opened-ended. A UWP Pop code of 2 does not allow you to have millions of sophonts on the planet, no matter what stupid and lazy writers do, but apparently it does because here is more evidence. Now the Imperial Army is TL-12, but has TL-15 gear. That TL-15 gear makes them TL-15. So again, writers are stupid and editors are lazy. Do better guys. I know you guys can.
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You need to do better too, calling people stupid or lazy isn’t the way dude, this isn’t something you can learn in a few afternoons. As for the UWP, it was always more of a guideline than a hard rule, it’s assist with world building, there are a few examples where the pop code says one thing but reality is another due to politics and how you count people, my understanding is that it’s a census of citizens, not and the average of visitors both short and long term, that however is neither her nor there for this discussion.
I think a possible solution to this is better retro tech rules, so we may understand what the benefits or and drawbacks are outside of electronics, and some concessions in the direction of pace, and in universe realities of logistical constraints, and how much time and effort the powers that be are willing to place on training and education of their forces.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Agreed and anyone who is a new player/Referee asking questions, I will have My utmost patience. People who claim to be knowledgeable, but can't read the books? No, for them I have no patience.
The UWP is exactly as you describe it and if it was left as that, it can work fine. What happens though when you now need to use those "inaccurate" numbers to plug it into a calculation in the WBH? All of a sudden you need those numbers to actually means something and not be an only in-universe number. If it is used mechanically in game formulas, then it has to be an out of game number. The problem is that Traveller seems to want it both ways and so it works for none of them.
I would agree with this. Some of it has been done already, but some parts are hard to locate in the books and others haven't been considered yet.
To what purpose? Mongoose reads these forums and is aware of our opinions. This community is a small fraction of the total Traveller player base. And even within that small community, not every one agrees that this is a problem.
And even if you accept that it is a problem, there is lots of ways to fix it. They need a new ground combat system anyway, so they could write one that isn't so "may the best TL win" so that the statement about being equal to the Zhos is actually true.
Or they could clarify that the Imperial Army is, in fact, a patchwork of militia units that, on average, are TL 12. So Vice Marshal Lord Bryor has his 25 divisions of TL 15 soldiers and the reinforcements are Porozlo's 75 divisions of TL 7 troops. And the standing "Army" is Headquarters units that are trained at integrating the various logistics and command & control elements of these disparate units.
Fuzzy isn't a problem. IMHO, it is that they make a big deal about it not being as advanced as it could be and then saying "But it's just as good as if it was that advanced." They say "totally not fuzzy, definitely this!" and then saying treat it like its fuzzy. They didn't have to say the army was TL12. They didn't give any stats for any mass combat system for any of these units, so what's the point of trying to give an overall TL instead of just discussing the gear and label it at the earliest TL it gets deployed it, like all other gear in Traveller?
I vehemently dislike the argument that everything needs to be nailed down and given a cast in imperishable crystal meaning. We have TL15 battleships being made obsolete by other TL15 battleships. There's no mechanics to support that and that's fine. TL15 is a range and you can imagine it having iterations without requiring there to be rules supporting that.
But if you do choose to nail something down, then don't make it wishy-washy. Same thing with world building. The UWP is intentionally flexible. But once you write up the details on that world, you do need to explain exactly what you mean and how that relates to the shorthand. So if you make a big issue of how logistics & politics force the Imperial Army to be second rate, then run with that. Or give more than half a sentence to how they manage to actually perform as well or better than the Zhos despite that.
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