Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Worse, it turns out the new design system is broken.
Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata
- Thread starter ottarrus
- Start date
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I'd say no, never, but this is Mongoose.
I believe the new system is sound, and even very similar to the old system, though it will undoubtedly not please everyone. For transparency, I will admit to having been a beta reader for the new rules and have already used the new system.
A new book they *might* buy. Treating the entire playerbase like they are the way we are, buying all or nearly all the material and actually putting time into the various obscure rules sets is a mistake. I suspect that the majority of the player base will not even notice that they don't match unless someone tells them.
It would be nice if, post release, there was a pdf update bringing some of the older stuff up to date. But I don't know what their work capacity for that sort of thing is.
It would be nice if, post release, there was a pdf update bringing some of the older stuff up to date. But I don't know what their work capacity for that sort of thing is.
MonsterX
Emperor Mongoose
As others have pointed out, the situation is not the same as 20th century Earth when you can ship around the global in a few weeks. Equipment coming from TL 15 worlds may need to be shipped for months. Local suppliers in the FFW are going to be lower tech. Not everyone is building TL 15. Much the time TL 12 is good enough. (this doesn't mean that the Imperium would stick to TL 12 though - that is definitely a bad decision)
Instead, ask yourself, would a TL 4 army use TL 1 gear if they had to? Swords, lances? IRL at TL 4, they obviously did have such equipment and used it alongside their guns, but a sword from 1850 would have been perfectly recognizable and usable by someone from 1000 or even 0 AD. An army from 1850 would fight using swords and bayonets if they ran out of ammo. Our current age is one of uniquely fast technological progress, but the Imperium is not.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The example to study would be the Sword Worlders.
As a systematic approach.
As a systematic approach.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Who cares if it has to be shipped for months? They have been building this tech for the last 300 years. That crap could have been shipped to the Galactic Core by now.
No, they wouldn't. Men who used swords in the 1850s would have no idea how to fight with a Roman Gladius. Swords in the 1850s that were used by armies were predominantly calvary sabers. So, there is no skill correlation there. Once you take away their rifles, are your infantrymen supposed to know how to use a sling? You know what else your 1850s calvary wouldn't have using TL-1 gear? Stirrups. I'd love to see your 1850s artillery guys trying to figure out how to build, aim and fire a catapult. An army from the 1850s fighting a TL-1 army using TL-1 equipment would lose, badly. The TL-1 guys know how to use their equpiment, the TL-4 guys do not.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Personally, I think the FFW needs to be scrapped and redone as it no longer matches the reality of Charted Space. The routes that the fleets use to reach their targets is stupid. Why are they not using empty hexes to travel invisibly? According to WBH...
According to this, empty hexes are only empty on the commercially available Travellermap. In reality they can have plenty of places to refuel, gas giants, rogue planets, etc.
So, why did the writers not take this into account when writing the new MgT2 FFW?
According to this, empty hexes are only empty on the commercially available Travellermap. In reality they can have plenty of places to refuel, gas giants, rogue planets, etc.
So, why did the writers not take this into account when writing the new MgT2 FFW?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
and this is another reason why all of the building rules (by topic) need to be in the same book (by topic) and writers need a setting "bible" so they know what technology is in Charted Space and which isn't. If they want to make a change to Canon, then that should go through @MongooseMatt and not just be up to the author.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
You are preaching to the choir...
if Mongoose is not working behind the scenes on a 3rd edition of Mongoose Traveller for release in 2027
a) they are allowing this contradictory, inconsistent, bloated mess to continue (likely a bit harsh but it is passion driving me, I really like what Mongoose has done with Traveller - I know it often doesn't come across that way)
b) they are missing the chance to cash in big time on the anniversary, it is going to be a big talking point as we head to 2027 (everyone post on every rpg forum and antisocial media platform that you can, get people talking)
c) they are happy with the cash they are raking in and don't want any more (I have spent a fortune on FFW books that I consider to be worse than useless so far, with the exception of a couple of adventures, and will continue to purchase future books, I hope to be surprised by suddenly having some agency as was promised, at least GDW gave us a wargame/boardgame to fight the war ourselves)
if Mongoose is not working behind the scenes on a 3rd edition of Mongoose Traveller for release in 2027
a) they are allowing this contradictory, inconsistent, bloated mess to continue (likely a bit harsh but it is passion driving me, I really like what Mongoose has done with Traveller - I know it often doesn't come across that way)
b) they are missing the chance to cash in big time on the anniversary, it is going to be a big talking point as we head to 2027 (everyone post on every rpg forum and antisocial media platform that you can, get people talking)
c) they are happy with the cash they are raking in and don't want any more (I have spent a fortune on FFW books that I consider to be worse than useless so far, with the exception of a couple of adventures, and will continue to purchase future books, I hope to be surprised by suddenly having some agency as was promised, at least GDW gave us a wargame/boardgame to fight the war ourselves)
I don't know that I'd say they are worse than useless. They don't actively harm my game, though the "Imperial Army is TL 12" thing certainly comes close in that it will taint discussion for years.
I will say that Invasion was vastly more useful than any of the FFW sourcebooks so far.
I will say that Invasion was vastly more useful than any of the FFW sourcebooks so far.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
One addendum, I know that there are only a few people who post regularly on these forums, and a few more who post occasionally, so I don't want to come across as ridiculously negative to people who may just pass by. Many will find the FFW books really useful for their games, I don't regret buying them, and I can see how many will find the information in these books useful.
So the few of us that post regularly have "the loudest voice", we should be careful that a minority loud voice doesn't do more harm than good. Mongoose has 1,000 people there or there about contribute to the kickstarters, and their sales on drivethru are likely matched by their own store sales, if not surpassed. So there is a sizable fanbase that remains silent when we have these discussions, most just get on with their own game and ignore the noise.
Too much sun, BBQ and sangria...
So the few of us that post regularly have "the loudest voice", we should be careful that a minority loud voice doesn't do more harm than good. Mongoose has 1,000 people there or there about contribute to the kickstarters, and their sales on drivethru are likely matched by their own store sales, if not surpassed. So there is a sizable fanbase that remains silent when we have these discussions, most just get on with their own game and ignore the noise.
Too much sun, BBQ and sangria...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If I had to speculate, there's not enough staff to kickstart a completely new series of reeditioned books.
boggo2300
Emperor Mongoose
TL12 has been the standard base level tech of the Third Imperium for decades of traveller stuff
Thats not a new thing though, TL-12 IS the base level of the Imperium, and has been for decades
MonsterX
Emperor Mongoose
On point one, that's not the point I'm making, as you would understand if you actually read the posts you were replying to. To repeat my point, in the hope that this time you will read and understand, I think that the Imperium would in fact stockpile TL 15 gear for their frontline units, and it does not make sense that the Imperial Army is equipped to TL 12. However, logistics are difficult enough that in a prolonged conflict local suppliers would be needed to replace lost, captured and worn out equipment, and these would likely be of a lower tech level because TL 15 worlds are not everywhere. This likelihood would probably be factored into their plans. This is not to say they'd revert to TL12 but rather adapt the use of TL 12 gear (or whatever TL) to a TL 15 fight. This lower TL gear would not be old stuff from the stockpiles of 1000 years ago, but new production from local sources.
On point 2, you are correct. The mysteries of the gladius would confound an 1850s cavalryman. Swords of the ancient world bear no resemblance to their 19th century counterparts. It would be silly of me to think they did.
However, also not my point. My point is that in earlier periods of history military equipment changed over centuries and millennia, not decades.
Sabers and lances, and indeed stirrups, are devices that can be PRODUCED in a TL 1 world, more or less, and they were in use by regular military as late as TL 6. Obviously, materials, production methods, doctrines changed over the years - and weapon design tended to fit doctrine but the point is, the change was slow. Which it also is in the Imperium. So having 100 year old gear or even older in stockpile in not out of the question.
If you fail to understand it yet again, I suggest re-reading this post until you are able to respond to the argument I am making rather than some other argument that you imagine I am making.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
No it hasn't.
Tl15 is the base TL for the Imperium and has been since A:1
The Sylean Federation had been TL12 for centuries before Cleon declared the Third Imperium.
No it hasn't, The Third Imperium has been TL15 since A:1.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
They use makers to make spares...
Your Army is equipped to TL7, you do not mass produce TL5 spares. You build repair factories at every IN base, Imperial Waystaion, you may even build TL15 military factories on lower TL worlds.
And then we got to the industrial revolution and the pace of change accelerated.
And they were easily defeated on the battlefield.
How many horse mounted units are now maintained for frontline battle?
The Imperium has been TL15 for over a hundred years, it has been TL14 for three centuries before that, a period where it has fought peer opponents on three occasions. By the start of the FFW the Imperial Army is TL15, the Imperial Navy is TL15, with a 100 years of stockpiling, 100 years to build repair facilities and parts manufacturer. It has the population and industrial base to do this easily.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
At some point, you may need to revert to donkey logistics.
Also, boarding axes.
Also, boarding axes.
In GURPS Traveller, which uses a different definition of the Tech levels. In every other version, it is TL 15.
The typical civilian space craft in the frontiers is around TL 12, because that's cost effective and the easiest for commercial concerns to keep repaired and supplied. Just like my Cessna doesn't have the same sophistication as a F-35.
But the Imperium was TL 12 when it was founded, 1100 years ago.
I do agree that every soldier isn't equipped in Battle Dress and FGMP-15. But that's just showing the lack of development of a full range of TL 15 equipment in the game, not that that's the only gear available and anything else is lower tech. There will be lots of guys in combat armor with either a laser or a slug thrower that is actually effective on a TL 15 battlefield. Because you need that for garrison, counter insurgency, and any fighting where folks on your side might not be 100% in radiation resisting gear.
While that combat armor might not be significantly different stat wise from the TL 13 version in terms of armor, it would absolutely have TL 15 electronics and integration with the Imperium's TL battlespace management technologies.
Sadly, we have little or no exploration of what a TL 15 battlefield actually looks like. How does meson artillery, ubiquitous grav, and hyper advanced electronics change how troops are deployed and battlefields operate? Traveller has barely ever touched on that and, unfortunately, this book passed on the effort too.
Armies has a lot of great discussion of how modern armies of today function. However, it just makes the Army of the 57th century the same as the military of today, except their vehicles don't rely on tracks. And to do that, it has to limit the TL of the Army to one that is absolutely obsolete in comparison to its major war opponents. I fundamentally disagree with that conception.
