Argan Argar as war god...

[kintire]

Mass. Leverage. Cube-square function. Probably not.

I don't see why not. And anyway, if you're going to start with this kind of thing we'll be talking about the Gorakiki flying bug riders before we get on to phalanxes!

And as for the hoplite armour, one might note that trolls, on the whole, are not known for their metalworking.

Generally true, but not perhaps as true of the Only Old One. The Kingdom of Night was unusually civilised for a troll dominated kingdom.

Ah, you mean that the idea is more realistic because the trollkin are going to actively pursue their enemies?

If you use appropriate Communication/Harmony magics, yes. Or failing that, deploy a Dark Troll phalanx to their immediate rear.

Working as a phalanx is a matter of morale and discipline, something that Trollkin do not have.

Neither does anyone... until they are taught it.

 

[richaje]

Working as a phalanx is a matter of morale and discipline, something that Trollkin do not have.

Neither does anyone... until they are taught it.

Maybe if you picked and chose from every exceptional value trollkin on the Shadow Plateau you could field a small trollkin phalanx. Maybe. Probably not-

But that's not how trolls use trollkins. They actually are useful as disorganized spear-waving mobs of screaming runts attacking in darkness - their entire tactical purpose is to pin down an opponent and wear them out. With some luck, the trollkin mob will also help disorganize the foe, but that really isn't that important. The main thing is that they tire out the foe - the trolls send out their real fighters!

The great thing about trollkin (from the perspective of the trolls) is that they really are cannon fodder. Trolls can order wave after wave of trollkin in order to tire out the foe. Then, when the troll leaders judge the enemy to be exhausted or disorganized, they send in the dark trolls (and any great trolls) and unleash the spirits of darkness and hell upon the enemy.

If, on the other hand, the trollkin fail to tire or disorganize the foe, the trolls can retreat in the darkness - having only lost scores of easily replaced slaves.

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

Mass. Leverage. Cube-square function. Probably not.

I don't see why not. And anyway, if you're going to start with this kind of thing we'll be talking about the Gorakiki flying bug riders before we get on to phalanxes!

Because the average Trollkin have about the same leverage as a 8 year old human. Let's try and keep the strawmen arguements to a minimum, shall we? Flying bug-riders are fantasitcal, yes? Scrawny little guys with 12' pikes... well... I've seen Labyrinth.

And as for the hoplite armour, one might note that trolls, on the whole, are not known for their metalworking.

Generally true, but not perhaps as true of the Only Old One. The Kingdom of Night was unusually civilized for a troll dominated kingdom.

This is a possibility but I am doubtful if the trolls are willing 'waste' valuable metal armour on their worthless trollkin. Remember the cultural attitudes to these little critters. Food supply and ablative troops. And there's plenty of huge hulking trolls who need amour even more badly.

Ah, you mean that the idea is more realistic because the trollkin are going to actively pursue their enemies?

If you use appropriate Communication/Harmony magics, yes. Or failing that, deploy a Dark Troll phalanx to their immediate rear.

Dark trolls don't do phalanxes. It's just not their thing. If you think they do as a regular practice, YGMV. There are a few spear units mentioned in troll pak and elsewhere. And deploying the NKVD behind the front line units is definitely encouraging but hardly the sort of thing one does with a supposed elite and well trained unit... but what one does with a mob of spearmen.

Working as a phalanx is a matter of morale and discipline, something that Trollkin do not have.

Neither does anyone... until they are taught it.

Actually, if you read up on trollkin, the vast majority of them are simply incapable of that level of intelligence and capability. Superior trollkin, supposedly the best (outside of the exceptional 'sports') are uncommon to say the least. But again, YGMV.

Jeff

 

[soltakss]

Because the average Trollkin have about the same leverage as a 8 year old human. Let's try and keep the strawmen arguements to a minimum, shall we? Flying bug-riders are fantasitcal, yes? Scrawny little guys with 12' pikes... well... I've seen Labyrinth.

Most trollkin are food. Of the rest, many are just slaves designed to be worked to death or generate new trollkin slaves.

Of the rest, a lot would be placed in trollkin spear units. These are the best of the best, elite trollkin who can boss around the other trollkin and get first dibs on the trollkin breeding women, at least until they die in a battle.

So, I can't see a problem with the best of the best trollkin wielding spears.

Dark trolls don't do phalanxes. It's just not their thing. If you think they do as a regular practice, YGMV. There are a few spear units mentioned in troll pak and elsewhere. And deploying the NKVD behind the front line units is definitely encouraging but hardly the sort of thing one does with a supposed elite and well trained unit... but what one does with a mob of spearmen.

Dark Trolls generally don't, but Argan Argar Dark Trolls might. After all, it's a cult skill. They might break up the phalanx and use other tactics when necessary, but I don't see why trolls cannot use phalanxes.

Actually, if you read up on trollkin, the vast majority of them are simply incapable of that level of intelligence and capability. Superior trollkin, supposedly the best (outside of the exceptional 'sports') are uncommon to say the least. But again, YGMV.

The ones that aren't are food. The ones that are too intelligent are eaten as being "uppity". The ones in the middle are the ones who are used in spear units.

They are grateful for being given an important job to do, can lord it over other trollkin and know the Black Eater is going to get their souls when they die anyway, so why not kill a few enemies in the meantime?

At the end of the day, they are cannon fodder and the trolls know it. They don't, though, and will quite happily go over the top for their masters.

 

[Voriof]

Because the average Trollkin have about the same leverage as a 8 year old human. Let's try and keep the strawmen arguements to a minimum, shall we? Flying bug-riders are fantasitcal, yes? Scrawny little guys with 12' pikes... well... I've seen Labyrinth.

Most trollkin are food. Of the rest, many are just slaves designed to be worked to death or generate new trollkin slaves.

Of the rest, a lot would be placed in trollkin spear units. These are the best of the best, elite trollkin who can boss around the other trollkin and get first dibs on the trollkin breeding women, at least until they die in a battle.

So, I can't see a problem with the best of the best trollkin wielding spears.

I don't either. I just think Dara Happan style hoplites, peltasts, and the like are... unlikely. Mobs of disorganized or even semi-organized trollkin? No problem. Elite maniples of exquisitely disciplined trollkin with their own wargod? Not as likely.

Ew. Trollkin breeding... doesn't work out as well as it might. (looks for an 'aghast' smiley and find's nothing suffices!) They don't seem to breed true all that well... not that that stops them.

Dark Trolls generally don't, but Argan Argar Dark Trolls might. After all, it's a cult skill. They might break up the phalanx and use other tactics when necessary, but I don't see why trolls cannot use phalanxes.

Mmm. Possible. I just reread some of the old trollpack stuff and Laca does seem to have something going for it in the heavy spear troll unit (as well as many mobs of trollkin spearcarriers). I don't think they're all that common. That said, in the 2nd Age, Argan Argar is supposedly far more prevalent - possibly due to the power of the Kingdom of Night and the residual effects of the Stygian Autarchy. You've convinced me that its possible.

But I'll accept it on only one condition: They have to look like Saruman's heavily armed orc phalanxes!

The ones that aren't are food. The ones that are too intelligent are eaten as being "uppity". The ones in the middle are the ones who are used in spear units.

Yes, these are the ones I'd use but I am not sure how common they are among the mewling hordes? 5%? 10%? No more than that, surely. There's not a huge lot of the really useful-yet-bidbable ones. especially as these also fill out the numbers of 'hunter trollkin who's not a tracking hound trollkin, workboss trollkin, crafttroll helper trollkin, beetle tender trollkin, etc.

They are grateful for being given an important job to do, can lord it over other trollkin and know the Black Eater is going to get their souls when they die anyway, so why not kill a few enemies in the meantime?

Well put. As I said, I think its possible but common trollish practice.

At the end of the day, they are cannon fodder and the trolls know it. They don't, though, and will quite happily go over the top for their masters.

Sure. Works for me. I just don't think its as common as all get out. That said, I think we should put some rules/writeups to the concept and see what happens.

Jeff

 

[Sinisalo]

their entire tactical purpose is to pin down an opponent and wear them out. With some luck, the trollkin mob will also help disorganize the foe, but that really isn't that important. The main thing is that they tire out the foe - the trolls send out their real fighters!

In the same way Alexander pinned down his enemies with his phalanx before sending in his real fighters the companion cavalry.

As for metal armour, according to my Osprey book there is no mention of a cuirass in the Macedonian army regulations only regulations for helmet, greaves and shield (and that the smaller pelte, not the hoplite hoplon). It does say that the front ranks would have worn body armour but probably a linen linothorax.

So, a trollkin pike with a small metal tip, bronze helm, bronze greaves and wooden buckler is hardly going to break the bank. Replace some of the metal with chitin and, bingo, instant phalanx.

As for the ducks you'll have to ask the Kwakadonians.

 

[Voriof]

As for metal armour, according to my Osprey book there is no mention of a cuirass in the Macedonian army regulations only regulations for helmet, greaves and shield (and that the smaller pelte, not the hoplite hoplon). It does say that the front ranks would have worn body armour but probably a linen linothorax.

Yeah, but traditionally, Gloranthan hoplites have had the full metal thing going since sometime back in the '70s.

So, a trollkin pike with a small metal tip, bronze helm, bronze greaves and wooden buckler is hardly going to break the bank. Replace some of the metal with chitin and, bingo, instant phalanx.

Assuming you have trollkin capable of it, which is the main problem. On the whole, they just aren't - not in sufficient numbers.

As for the ducks you'll have to ask the Kwakadonians.

Sure. Why not. Though I think that the ducks are more likely to field pike* and bill units.

Jeff

* the fish

 

[Sinisalo]

Sure. Why not. Though I think that the ducks are more likely to field pike* and bill units.

hahahhahahahahhahahahahahaha
lmfao

Bill is that the same as billhook?

 

[Voriof]

Sure. Why not. Though I think that the ducks are more likely to field pike* and bill units.

hahahhahahahahhahahahahahaha
lmfao

Bill is that the same as billhook?

I would presume so. At least, that's how I've always heard those formations described as "pike and bill" units - I collect Osprey books too, y'know. I think that Owwiver Cwomwell needs to be a duck - though the Atroxi Church in Black Horse County definitely has the penance-and-flagellation Puritanism down pat.

Jeff

P.S. Down Styphon!

 

[zozotroll]

Down Styphon indeed, I cant wait for "Queen Rylas throne!

Able and willing are two different things. Just because it seems possible to make an enlo spear block, how many darktrolls are going to bother? As for the armor, if you go to the trouble to train the little buggers, it is probably not worth the effort unless you can armor them.

Glorantha almost sems dsetermined to have at least one of everything, no matter how improbable, so there must be one out there somewhere. But not very many.

But look at ZZ worship. We should only be a small percentage of the population, yet we make up a big percentage of adventurers. So if there is ever one official enlo Phalanx, you will see them things everywhere.

But it would make a cool miniatures boxed set.

 

[soltakss]

Ew. Trollkin breeding... doesn't work out as well as it might. (looks for an 'aghast' smiley and find's nothing suffices!) They don't seem to breed true all that well... not that that stops them.

Don't forget that an awful lot of trollkin are food. So, they eat, they get fat, they are eaten. There just aren't enough trollkin births to trolls to supply trollkin as food - the numbers just don't add up. Female trollkin become fertile fairly early and it's a shame to waste them.

I see trollkin society as being a mirror image of troll society. So, the Values are superior, females are treated as Mothers and are kept permanently pregnant. Males are more important, as trollkin don't have the dominant Kyger Litor associations. There is no real stigma to trollkin births amongst trollkin, as they aren't expected to produce live trolls. Even stillbirths aren't a problem as they provide a small amount of food. That's why there is no shortage of trollkin wetnurses.

Since trolls don't really like to be with trollkin that much, the trollkin pens are pretty much left to themselves. Values are in charge and keep order, but as long as they supply enough food and the trollkin don't escape too often then things are fine. Life for a female food trollkin is not a particularly happy one, although they are fed until they are fit to burst, then they get the call to the Table.

Mmm. Possible. I just reread some of the old trollpack stuff and Laca does seem to have something going for it in the heavy spear troll unit (as well as many mobs of trollkin spearcarriers). I don't think they're all that common. That said, in the 2nd Age, Argan Argar is supposedly far more prevalent - possibly due to the power of the Kingdom of Night and the residual effects of the Stygian Autarchy. You've convinced me that its possible.

Sure, they won't be that common. The Shadowlands would have them, as Argan Argar is big there and is bigger in the Second Age due to the presence of the Only Old One, Argan Argar's son and Demigod Ruler of the Shadowlands. Shadow's Dance/Dagori Inkarth might have a few units, but not that many. The Elder Wilds trolls might have trollkin but I can't remember if Argan Argar is big there, the trolls in the far north won't have trollkin in any large numbers, Halikiv was settled by Arkati trolls (I think) and I shouldn't think they'd have a big Argan Argar contingent, I don't know about Yolp. I can't think of any other large trollish settlements off the top of my head.

 

[kintire]

But that's not how trolls use trollkins

Your confident statement is noted. If I recall my Gloranthan rules correctly, that means that 15% of trolls DO use trollkin that way! 8)

More seriously, you seem to be taking all the info we have on 3rd age trolls and confidently declaring that that is the way all trolls have done everything since the Dawn. The second is the Imperial age. Almost everybody is far more civilised (or marginalised) than in the post apocalypse 3rd age. The Orlanthi have a large, civilised sophisticated Empire. Do the EWF Orlanthi troops fight in 3rd age style warbands all the time? The Only Old One is the son of Argan Argar, has contact with two highly sophisticated Empires either of which would be delighted to turn a small fraction of their vast resources to equipping him to frustrate the other (he picked the EWF I believe). I see no reason why Argan Argar followers of the civilised Second Age would always treat their trollkin in exactly the same way as Kyger Litor worshippers of the barbarian Third.

Because the average Trollkin have about the same leverage as a 8 year old human. Let's try and keep the strawmen arguements to a minimum, shall we?

Now this just can't be true. If the average Trollkin is as capable with weapons as an 8 year old human then they are worthless in combat, whether as phalanxes or spear mobs. They must be more formidable than that, or they would never be fielded at all.

Dark trolls don't do phalanxes. It's just not their thing. If you think they do as a regular practice

I'll keep the strawman arguments down if you do the same. I don't think they do it as a regular practice, I think it is plausible and interesting that they might do it during the more civilised periods of their history where Argan Argar is dominant: eg 2nd Age Kingdom of Night.

hardly the sort of thing one does with a supposed elite and well trained unit

Phalanxes need a degree of cohesion and discipline, but once you have that they can be trained up in a few months.

Actually, if you read up on trollkin, the vast majority of them are simply incapable of that level of intelligence and capability

Hold Blunt End. Point Pointy End Towards Enemy. Stay Together Or I Kill You.

Okay, phalanx training is slightly more complex than that, but not much.

 

[Voriof]

But that's not how trolls use trollkins

Your confident statement is noted. If I recall my Gloranthan rules correctly, that means that 15% of trolls DO use trollkin that way! 8)

Only Orlanthi trolls.

Jeff

 

[Sinisalo]

If you can have cats herding sheep you can have a trollkin phalanx

 

[Cleombrotus]

There is a mention of "The Spirit Warriors" in the old AH Troll cults book. Anyone know anything about it beyond what's in that book?