Argan Argar as war god...

[Cleombrotus]

I've always wondered at the potential for a more martial side of this cult, and particularly the cult as the god of surface darkness, rather than the troll merchant cult version.
I was also further intrigued by the idea in Troll Gods that the spear is the symbolic weapon of Argan Argar, spears seeming particularly un-trollish. I like the idea of humans worshipping the night and had visions of a kind of yelmalian style of cult but one that reveres darkness rather than light/sky - the opposite side of the same coin, so to speak.
This is, of course, due to my heavy bias toward ancient Greek/hoplite imagery.
We know that the Kingdom of night was centred around Argan Argar worship, and that many humans did so, and we know of the Kitori tribe and of darkness worshipping Orlanthi in northern Dragon Pass.

Does any of the Mongoose stuff have good Argan Argar reference material? Any second age mentions of Argan Argar?
Does anyone know if this side of the cult has ever been explored or hinted at? Anyone have any suggestions that I can steal and make look like my own? Probably a question for a different forum, but I like this one...

 

[soltakss]

Well, the martial arm of Argar Argar was founded originally because Argan Argar defeated Lodril and stole a number of abilities.

Lodril was chained and made to build the Castle of Black Glass.
Argan Argar gained the Suppress Lodril spell/ability (or whatever it's called now).
Argan Argar gained the use of Spear.
Argan Argar gained the use of formation spear combat.

The Only Old One couldn't really use these abilities to great effect because trolls didn't like using spears and didn't fight in formations, so it lay dormant until the Gbaji Curse, or rather until the multiple trollkin births. Then, the second-string cult of Argan Argar could use the inferior trollkin and put them into formation using spears and so the army was born. Since The Only Old One was Argan Argar's son, he found this fairly easy.

I'd guess that they would get some formation magic as well as cover of darkness magic to hep them fight in the daytime. Certainly, they would do in the Second Age, as the Only Old One is still around.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Cheers, Simon. Lodril connection. Another possibility.

I'm wondering about this as a long term thing for my character. I have an idea of forming a mercenary contingent of hoplites who fight using powers of darkness, and I love the idea of black shields and helmet crests advancing behind darkwalls, or, even better, under a mass dark walk.

I look at the cult write up and see so many mirrors with yelmalio - one son of Yelm, one son of Xentha, the predisposition with the spear, etc, and just wondered about humans worshipping surface darkness. I reckon that such contingents would have existed in the Kingdom of Night, and I like the idea of my character questing after some ancient regimental spirit from the Shadow Plateau area or somesuch.

Whenever I look at the cult writeups, it doesn't seem to do justice to what would surely be one of the major Gloranthan deities...

 

[Sinisalo]

Humans worship not Argan Argar but Argur Argan.

As for spear formations, its an ideal strategy for a bunch of useless dumbasses so its ideal for trollkin. Cheap and effective. As to whether this came from Lodril, was the myth invented to fit the bill?

 

[Cleombrotus]

As for spear formations, its an ideal strategy for a bunch of useless dumbasses so its ideal for trollkin.

...and all those useless dumbass phalanxes in the Lunar Heartland Corps, and all those useless Yelmite Dara Happans, and the notoriously useless dumbasses known as Sun Dome Templars.

I think you may be being a little harsh toward Gloranthan 'spear formations'...

 

[Sinisalo]

No, what i meant was that massed spear blocks and schiltroms are easily taught with just a bit of drilling. The individual soldiers themselves have a greater sense of security in such a formation (as long as their flanks are covered) and therefore their morale will hold longer (good for trollkin). A spear is also a cheap weapon and easily mass produced. Get a load of peasants together with some sticks and a small amount of metal and you have an instant regiment.

The phalanx is an altogether different beast, apparently the macedonian phalanx did very complicated maneuvers to demoralise their enemies. It was also not cheap, their pikes needed metal weights and metal fixings (the pike came in two parts) and they needed armour because they couldn't use a shield to parry.

Besides, the Orlanthi shieldwall is a prime example of dumbasses with spears. The formation is only two or three deep but still mostly armed with spears, again provides good morale (very tight formation, locked shields, buddies to the side and behind) and again easily taught to peasants.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Fair One. It's a really interesting question on its own, I reckon. How would Gloranthan warfare work? How would magic integrate with melee, etc?

Where did you get your information on human worship of Argan Argar from? Sorry, Argur Argan?

 

[Voriof]

Fair One. It's a really interesting question on its own, I reckon. How would Gloranthan warfare work? How would magic integrate with melee, etc?

Where did you get your information on human worship of Argan Argar from? Sorry, Argur Argan?

HeroQuest, among other places. The HQ rules have a full writeup of Argar Argan, specifically noting that this is how he is worshiped among humans.

It's a pity there wasn't a chance to write up the militant side of the Son of Darkness and Earth in CoG - it is practically a second cult in and of itself in some places. I'd hoped that the Uz book would cover him in more detail but I do not have a copy of that handy.

Jeff

 

[atgxtg]

On the battlefield, I could see these as light troops, augmented by missile troops. The spear carriers screening the missile troops

A bunch of sling stones or javelins coming out of a darkwall would be a nice opening move. If the foe charges, they run right into the spears (literally).

 

[Cleombrotus]

HeroQuest, among other places. The HQ rules have a full writeup of Argar Argan, specifically noting that this is how he is worshiped among humans.

It's a pity there wasn't a chance to write up the militant side of the Son of Darkness and Earth in CoG - it is practically a second cult in and of itself in some places. I'd hoped that the Uz book would cover him in more detail but I do not have a copy of that handy.

Jeff

1)Yeah, I have had the feeling for a long time that the 'troll trade god' side of Argan Argar only told half the story - maybe less than half, although it is stated that the cult had declined in power into the third age.

2)Has anyone heard of any major spirits of darkness worshipped by humans as representatives or minions of Argan Argar?

3)Do they give a mythological or historical reason for the altered name?

This is in the main Heroquest rulebook, you say?

 

[richaje]

1)Yeah, I have had the feeling for a long time that the 'troll trade god' side of Argan Argar only told half the story - maybe less than half, although it is stated that the cult had declined in power into the third age.

2)Has anyone heard of any major spirits of darkness worshipped by humans as representatives or minions of Argan Argar?

3)Do they give a mythological or historical reason for the altered name?

This is in the main Heroquest rulebook, you say?

Argar Argan is "A" human name for the Lord of Shadows - that is his "friendly" aspect. There are plenty others as well, including some pretty malevolent aspects as well. Check out History of the Heortling People which has a lot of little snippets as to how the Orlanthi interacted with the trolls (or Shadows as they were often known).

AA is a very important god in Kethaela and elsewhere - not a Great God of cosmic significance (like Orlanth or Ernalda), but an important and powerful god nonetheless. Although he is a god of Darkness, unlike Kyger Liter he is approachable by humans and other non-trollish races. It is perfectly normal for Orlanthi (especially the Hendriki) to offer certain sacrifices to AA as part of the ancient Shadow Tribute from the Darkness, although few initiate to him.

AA is most important as the intermediary between the Darkness and the other races. Sacrifice to AA and you may be able to keep your clan from being raided by the Shadows and other things of Darkness. Sacrifice enough to AA and he might be able to give you powers from the Darkness. AA is not a significant war god for either humans or troll - although he is the patron of the trollkin armies and he gave the spear to the trolls. He also has power over fire and light - as seen by his defeat and conquest of Veskarthan (Lodril).

Jeff

 

[d(sqrt(-1))]

I'd guess that they would get some formation magic as well as cover of darkness magic to hep them fight in the daytime.

Of course, there are also Vampire Trolls, who can only come out during the daytime...

Mark

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

There are actually (sort-of) Vampire trolls - the Kozoru.

They were covered in detail in 'The Book of Drastic Resolutions - Volume Darkness'. Very unpleasant creatures.

Regards

 

[soltakss]

Humans worship not Argan Argar but Argur Argan.

If you like having loads of names for the same god, then sure.

I like to keep it simple and just use the main name. So, Argan Argar it is for me.

As for spear formations, its an ideal strategy for a bunch of useless dumbasses so its ideal for trollkin. Cheap and effective.

Trollkin are not very good with maces as they are small and weedy, so spears are better. It's also a cult weapon, so would fit Argan Argari Trolls as well - isn't there a unit called The Spearmen of Laca?

As to whether this came from Lodril, was the myth invented to fit the bill?

Well, the Argan Argar Defeats Lodril Myth predates RQ, so I'd guess that Argan Argar using spears came from the myth, hence trollkin regiments using spears.

The idea of spear formations coming from Lodril is something I only just realised would be the case. It makes practical sense, as the Lodrili in Peloria use spears and Agimori use Pike formations, so Lodril is associated with Pike formations, so why not have trollkin phalanxes coming ultimately from Lodril?

 

[RosenMcStern]

The idea of spear formations coming from Lodril is something I only just realised would be the case. It makes practical sense, as the Lodrili in Peloria use spears and Agimori use Pike formations, so Lodril is associated with Pike formations, so why not have trollkin phalanxes coming ultimately from Lodril?

Trollkin spearmen, yes. Trollkin phalanxes, I do not think. This kind of formation depends heavily on morale, and trollkin have a very low morale, especially when in the open.

 

[Sinisalo]

The idea of spear formations coming from Lodril is something I only just realised would be the case. It makes practical sense, as the Lodrili in Peloria use spears and Agimori use Pike formations, so Lodril is associated with Pike formations, so why not have trollkin phalanxes coming ultimately from Lodril?

Trollkin spearmen, yes. Trollkin phalanxes, I do not think. This kind of formation depends heavily on morale, and trollkin have a very low morale, especially when in the open.

And that was my argument, that a mass of spearmen easily trained *provides* morale. You're surrounded by your mates, you kill cavalry easily (who are often the elites of an army) and you can kill people from 4 or more feet away without them getting near you. instant morale bonus.

This is a vote for trollkin phalanxes! What an idea!

 

[RosenMcStern]

Trollkin cannot use the overlong spear of a phalanx, so they cannot use them against cavalry or four feet away. Besides, no sensible Troll leader would ever field trollkin armies on the surface, because sunlight autiomatically demoralizes them. Sure, they can operate during the night, but I cannot think of any human general stupid enough to order a cavalry charge during the night. So the idea of using them like a human phalanx is unrealistic (and untrollish).

On the other hand, two warriors wielding a spear can operate in the same narrow passage where there is room for only one single warrior wielding a slashing weapon. This is the most likely usage for Argan Argari trollkin (the 300 trollkin, anyone?)

 

[Voriof]

The idea of spear formations coming from Lodril is something I only just realised would be the case. It makes practical sense, as the Lodrili in Peloria use spears and Agimori use Pike formations, so Lodril is associated with Pike formations, so why not have trollkin phalanxes coming ultimately from Lodril?

Trollkin spearmen, yes. Trollkin phalanxes, I do not think. This kind of formation depends heavily on morale, and trollkin have a very low morale, especially when in the open.

And that was my argument, that a mass of spearmen easily trained *provides* morale. You're surrounded by your mates, you kill cavalry easily (who are often the elites of an army) and you can kill people from 4 or more feet away without them getting near you. instant morale bonus.

This is a vote for trollkin phalanxes! What an idea!

Trollkin lack the discipline required for such military shennanigans, and on the whole most of them lack the brains to fight in an intelligent and organized fashion. AA Trollkin units have been described as 'mobs' for good reason.

Now, that's not to say that there may be one or two elite trollkin units kicking around on the Shadow Plateau or Halikiv but these would be very much the exception rather than the rule - for one thing training expendible yet exceptional trollkin to this level may give them bad ideas - I can see the Mothers being dead set against it.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

Trollkin lack the discipline required, and on the whole most of them lack the brains to fight in an intelligent and organized fashion. AA Trollkin units have been described as 'mobs' for good reason.

Now, that's not to say that there may be one or two elite trollkin units kicking around on the Shadow Plateau or Halikiv but these would be very much the exception rather than the rule - for one thing training expendible yet exceptional trollkin to this level may give them bad ideas - I can see the Mothers being dead set against it.

Jeff

I agree with Jeff K. Trollkin are too undisciplined, too stupid and too cowardly to fight in a phalanx. They are a mob with spears and little more.

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

That said, I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be something funky. Just as an exception. I remember Neep and Nosebiter's Feet with great fondness. But again, exceptional trollkin are just that... exceptional.

But I admit I do want to scream "THIS IS KETHAELA!" at someone in game in a high, squeaky voice.

Jeff