Appeal of Savage Worlds

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Agree with flatscan (wonders will never cease!).

You can pretty easily construct some mid-level npcs, by just giving them the detail they need. You dont have to be point perfect, and always remember that player characters are the special ones, theyre the ones with all the chrome, bells and whistles. Npcs can get by with one or two combat-oriented feats, and next to no other bonuses.

Once you have a selection, just re-use them, change one or two things and the name, obviously, but essentially, theres no reason for all your work to be one-use. Your players will never even question it in the slightest.

Once in a while, spend time on a special npcs details, but thats only when you know hes going to be sticking around throughout the plot.

Also, take stats from published sources and recycle them, theres no shame in it. Why sweat when the work is already done?

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I wonder if that's because, generally speaking, doing unusual things (ie not just hacking at your opponent) always involves some kind of special case, something that makes the special thing harder. Whereas it might be an idea to make them as straightforward as hacking so players are inclined to use them more and there aren't more rules to remember. Even an easy mechanic can be problematic for a group where everyone's not pretty fluent with the rules. So the more disarm, grapple, knockdown etc resemble the base mechanic the better. Probably.

Talking about RQ and CoC combat, the problem with RQ combat is that it is pretty lethal as people say. A D20 system can be appealing because of its predictability, especially at higher levels, but maybe this detracts from the excitement somewhat. The thing about CoC, its actually benefical for the combat system to be quick and deadly. But Call of Cthulhu doesnt really lend itself to long campaigns with the same characters, (even if theres lots of published adventures which suppose just that, as a GM, you have to fudge a bit if only for the plots sake).

Doing unusual things in combat is always going to be tricky. And often, rulesets make special rules for special circumstances. I think these quickly become clunky and are often areas where most houseruling is going on. Is it good for any game to rely on just one fluid mechanic? Dont know. Every task would feel like the same action, and the outcomes would get pretty samey.

I suppose unusual circumstances dont happen very often in a game by definition, so its the best place for clunky mechanics at least.

I think most rulesets around today are pretty slick, especially compared to the horrific monsters of the past, (Chivalry & Sorcery 1st edition, anyone?). Even D20 is pretty user friendly at its heart. So when I hear of 'fast-play' rules, I often think, 'Meh'.

I think most of us these days are rpg-fluent enough to use any current system and make it work for us. And I dont think something like Savage Worlds is going to be a good introduction for noobs to the joys of D20 or RQ. Its just too different. Maybe as an intro to GURPS, but theres GURPS lite for that.

 

[Demetrio]

Every task would feel like the same action, and the outcomes would get pretty samey.

well a knockdown would always have a different result than a disarm. And the more options a player has for his character and (key) feels comfortable using, the less samey combat will be, I think.

often, rulesets make special rules for special circumstances. I think these quickly become clunky and are often areas where most houseruling is going on

I agree completely.

On the other topic, I hardly ever generate npcs 'by the rules'. I never give low level npcs feats for instance (I like to keep feats special). And most often I'll do as flatscan does and just stat out the important skills/attributes.

 

[SnowDog]

I find this partial NPC generation quite workable idea (and I should have thought about it myself ). Granted, my example was a 5th level sorcerer but when the whole party was supposed to start at 1st level he would have been a special NPC for that story arc. That's why I wanted to stat him more throughly. I suppose that it is a personal call how much detail you want and d20 system can give you a lot of detail for a high level characters. Then again you can have quite a lot of edges and hindrances (flaws?) in SW, too.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I find this partial NPC generation quite workable idea (and I should have thought about it myself ). Granted, my example was a 5th level sorcerer but when the whole party was supposed to start at 1st level he would have been a special NPC for that story arc. That's why I wanted to stat him more throughly. I suppose that it is a personal call how much detail you want and d20 system can give you a lot of detail for a high level characters. Then again you can have quite a lot of edges and hindrances (flaws?) in SW, too.

At a quick glance, there are lots of stats in the Conan supplements for characters already there. Just by changing one or two details, and changing the name and/or sex of the character, theres hundreds of permutations already to use. Its a great, ready-made resource.

 

[Demetrio]

One rather odd quirk of SW is that while all melee combat is grouped under Fighting (a single skill), Knowledge requires specialisations as separate skills, and basically says 'the narrower the better'. While that's actually okay for some settings it does mean pcs who are more bookish will be very narrow compared with their combat slanted fellows.

 

[SnowDog]

True, I could harvest the source books for NPCs. I have to think about that. Thanks for the tip!

Good point about SW. Then again maybe it is meant to make the skill list shorter and academics are supposed to be specialists? Anyway the whole SW is based on miniatures game rules and it is pretty action oriented. I would not run a campaign of heavy research using SW. Conan would have worked pretty well, I suppose at least based on Solomon Kane RPG.

 

[Demetrio]

Well it doesn't actually make the skill list shorter... it expands it. If Knowledge was treated like Fighting it wouldn't need specialities.

As you say, it's a fighting based system (quite clearly) and in fact the quirk is fine for some settings.

I confess though I find it hard to make a SW character I can love below about Hero level, they just seem kind of lame below that. Mind you, that would go for d20 below about level 6 so it's not quite as bad as all that. It's just odd because skills are limited in number that charatcers tend to remain pretty average in many respects. I do prefer a reasonably high powered game (say lvl 8-12 in d20 terms) so maybe that's what very roughly equates to hero/legend in SW terms.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I do think SW tends to unravel once you reach those high levels. Same as D20 at level 20+, I suppose.

Knowledge skills have a catch-all get out clause in 'Common Knowledge' in SW and I suppose you could say that, rather than just needing one skill for combat, you probably need Guts, Intimidation, Shooting and Throwing too.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

...as well as a bunch of combat edges too...

 

[SnowDog]

Without any actual play experience with SW or d20 I can't really say how I feel about those levels but generally I like to especially run games where PCs are above average as I tend to run pretty tough and merciless games where it is good that characters can handle themselves. Then again I don't want them to skyrocket to really high power levels where any sense of reality diminishes.

It would be great to have a system that would have an easy way to have a power level dial and characters would just grow within that level. It would make managing campaigns a lot easier than more or less open ended power growth.

 

[Demetrio]

Well yes... and that's kind of why I feel higher levels give a more satisfying character in SW. Low levels are kind of light on feats... and everything.

Essentially, character generation allows you to have all attributes as average (d6) and, if you buy the maximum number of hindrances and spend those points solely on boosting attributes you could have two at d8 or one at d10. A heroic character can have raised his attibutes by three levels so he will average d8... it just doesn't seem very heroic to me really.

So I really disagree. think SW (and d20) only properly get going, for a typical sort of pulp game where heroes are heroes, not just above average joe's, at the mid/high level (which I would define as 6-12 in d20 terms and heroic - as a minimum - in SW terms).

In a way, I think that SW is rather restricted by its die types giving just the 5 levels (yes, I now when you are legendary you can boost above the top level) for each attribute and skill.

Essentially you have

d4 - below average/poor
d6 - average
d8 - above average (generic npc thugs will have a couple of these)
d10 - good
d12 - superb

Now granted, the way he mechanics work, having d12 in fighting makes you more than twice as good as a d6. (very crudely and ignoring feats, a d12 fighter will hit a d6 fighter 75% of the time and be hit only about 15% of the time)... in fact let me just drift off and look at that for all levels

d6 vs d6 hits 33% of the time, is hit 33% of the time
d8 vs d6 hits 50% of the time, is hit 17% of the time
d10 vs d6 hits 60% of the time, is hit 17% of the time
d12 vs d6 hits 75% of the time, is hit 15% of the time

d8 vs d8 hits 38% of the time, is hit 38% of the time
d10 vs d8 hits 50% of the time, is hit 25% of the time
d12 vs d8 hits 58% of the time, is hit 13% of the time

d10 vs d10 hits 40% of the time, is hit 40% of the time
d12 vs d10 hits 50% of the time, is hit 30% of the time

d12 vs d12 hits 42% of the time, is hit 42% of the time

(there's a little quirk or two virtue of the exploding dice mechanic which means it's actually better to have d6 than d8 against a d12 defence)

 

[SnowDog]

You disagree on ... what?

Use of bennies in SW can help a lot but doesn't save a low level character against a horde of mooks. Characters still has to grow up, get better skills and edges to be able to really be something like characters in movies and literature.

The funny thing that I have noticed from reading these boards and from having my group create a bunch of d20 Conan characters is that at first level (and I suppose some levels up) they are almost unplayable because the skills are so poor (I'm not going to combat here) and ability bonuses are really important here. Then at some point, probably at levels 6-12 like you said (I don't really know personally) characters are playable and it is still quite easy to challenge them. After that those characters get just too powerful to challenge.

So, in d20 characters go from total wimps to über machines pretty quickly (depending on how much XP the GM is handling). How steep this curvature is in SW, I have no idea.

 

[Demetrio]

I disagree with Yyrkoon, not with you. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, what we do for Conan d20 is to have the characters pre-made at each level from 6-12 and pick the appropriate sheets for whatever adventure is being run (there's only three of us as regulars so generally we have 2 players and a GM). For an episodic campaign it works really well. We haven't had a character die yet but if they did any 'future' adventures we'd aready played would just be part of his myth, not the truth (if you see what I mean).

I've not played much SW to be fair. But to get a character that 'feels' comparable to about 10th level in d20, I'd say they're about 20th level (ie well into Legendary in SW).

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

D20s optimal levels are from 5 - 11, thats where the game plays best. Before that, they die like flies, after that, they only need worry about demi gods. Its a big spread though. Characters can spend years in this zone, especially if the GM is careful about XP.

On the contrary, I think SW's mechanics fall apart pretty quickly after characters have a few D10 and D12s. And getting there can be pretty fast.

 

[Demetrio]

I'm not sure. But as I say, I've not played so much SW. I do agree (roughly) with your asesement of d20 levels, hence our camaign focuses on them.

But a SW character with much at d10 or d12 seems very narrow to me. I was playing around trying to generate something close to the lvl 12 version of my Conan character and even by SW level 24 he seemed inferior to the d20 version in terms of attributes and skills. But again, to be fair, I haven't done much testing on that, it's more my general impression.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I'm not sure. But as I say, I've not played so much SW. I do agree (roughly) with your asesement of d20 levels, hence our camaign focuses on them.

But a SW character with much at d10 or d12 seems very narrow to me. I was playing around trying to generate something close to the lvl 12 version of my Conan character and even by SW level 24 he seemed inferior to the d20 version in terms of attributes and skills. But again, to be fair, I haven't done much testing on that, it's more my general impression.

I think the curve in SW from Novice to Seasoned is pretty steep, considering the number of combat and general edges and mods that become available at Seasoned level. Also, its not too far from Seasoned to Legendary.

The overall progress from Novice to Legendary can be as little as 20 adventures!

 

[Demetrio]

Yeah but it takes quite a few edges to become 'cool' as a character in SW I think, in terms of a variety of stuff you can do (via edges, clearly it is possible to be 'cool' as a character merely through role-playing). Mind you I'd say the same thing about d20 feats, but you do get them more readily and not at the expense of skills or attributes either.

In theory if you're getting 2 advancement points per session in SW then it's what 16 levels to Legendary status? So 80 aps. 40 sessions. So yeah, not too long.

But even at legendary status in SW, I think you'll likely only have a skill or two at d12, maybe a couple at d10 or so. And one or two attributes at d10/d12. Unless you skimp a lot on edges. And edges add a lot of chrome to a character I find.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Thats why I think SW isnt too well thought out, and the levelling is a bit to-cock. Nice colour pics and everything, but seriously broken. Well, 'seriously' is a bit unfair, it is uite enjoyable as a change of pace, it wouldnt be my desert island choice though.

 

[Demetrio]

Yeah, the levelling does seem a bit off. Probably because it (apparently) started as miniatures rules.

The more I look at it, the more I'd like to like it more than I do...