Anti Tank Guns V Tanks

[Captain Kremmen]

My understanding is that in a straight fight between an anti tank gun and a tank the anti tank gun would almost always win.

It could be hidden so would always get the first shot off. The gun crew have much better vision and a more stable and roomy platform than a tank etc

The obvious disadvantage of an ATG is that it is not very mobile. Which is not so bad in a small scale game like WAW.

I don't want house rules, I just want to understand from Agis or Matt what the original intention was in WAW regarding ATG V Tank duels.

It looks as though the ATG has to wait for the Tank to move into sight (fair enough) but that the ATG can not fire in reaction fire so the tank can fire in it's 2nd action and effectively get the shot in first.

You can't actually shoot ATG's you shoot the crew? So as long as 1 crew remains the ATG will be able to fire back on it's turn?

I believe I read in a thread somewhere that you can recrew ATG's from neighbouring squads?

If this is true and hypothetically the tank killed the crew, on the defenders turn could they move their infantry to recrew in the first action and shoot in the 2nd action or would they need to ready the gun before?

Could we have the flow from the rules authors or beta testers as to what was intended.

I do not wish to criticise, or propose alternatives, I just wish to understand what the authors had in mind

Ta

Andy

 

[Hiromoon]

Well, it's not JUST the AT guns, but also the 88 and the Nebelwerfer

And sometimes the AT gun didn't get the first shot off, as well as it depends on the type of AT gun vs armor thickness & design.

 

[hithero]

Yup, been brought up before.
You can't hide an anti-tank gun.
You can't shoot at an anti-tank gun as it has no stats.
You can fire an anti-tank gun with just one model at full effect (so why have 3 crew?)
And if you do use just one crewman, the chances are he can't be seen behined the gunshield and therefore cannot be targeted anyway so cannot be shot at.

I'd suggest that an AT gun only becomes 'Slow' when reduced to one crew, this will then allow it to react fire, as it should, against unaware oncomming enemy.
You will also need houserules to allow the gun to be camoflaged and hidden, a simple rule we use is that a 4+ is required to spot the hidden target which is taken as part of a shoot action - seems to work good for us.

 

[Agis]

What were our ideas and intentions?

Too represent AT guns in a simple way that fits nicely into the WaW rules.

Yup, been brought up before.
You can't hide an anti-tank gun .

But you can put it into cover and wait for the 1st tank to come along...

You can't shoot at an anti-tank gun as it has no stats.

Yes and it was ment to be this way. See the above overall goal! The gun plus the crew are the stats!

You can fire an anti-tank gun with just one model at full effect (so why have 3 crew?.

The crew number was taken from the historic crew numbers..

And if you do use just one crewman, the chances are he can't be seen behined the gunshield and therefore cannot be targeted anyway so cannot be shot at.

Maybe from the front, depends on your minis, but definately from the sides.

 

[Agis]

snip
It looks as though the ATG has to wait for the Tank to move into sight (fair enough) but that the ATG can not fire in reaction fire so the tank can fire in it's 2nd action and effectively get the shot in first.

The WaW rules use the reaction system and not an action like "overwatch". To shoot as a Reaction represent small arms fire; not the big guns in WaW, and remeber - all tank guns are at the same disadvantage!

You can't actually shoot ATG's you shoot the crew? So as long as 1 crew remains the ATG will be able to fire back on it's turn?

Yes, think of the Gun and the crew as 1 model with 3 hits! No one would ask, why can the tank still shoot, it has only 1 hit left... :wink:

I believe I read in a thread somewhere that you can recrew ATG's from neighbouring squads?

I do not know of this rule!

 

[weasel_fierce]

Well, theres two conflicting realities at play:

1: A concealed antitank gun means a dead tank. The tank has virtually no way of detecting the tank (unless the tank commander pops out, which endangers him to enterprising snipers)

2: An observed antitank gun at close quarters with anything means a dead antitank gun.


Not sure how the game mechanics handle this but those are the perspectives a game needs to encompass.

 

[hithero]

What were our ideas and intentions?

Too represent AT guns in a simple way that fits nicely into the WaW rules.

Yup, been brought up before.
1- You can't hide an anti-tank gun .

But you can put it into cover and wait for the 1st tank to come along...

2- You can't shoot at an anti-tank gun as it has no stats.

Yes and it was ment to be this way. See the above overall goal! The gun plus the crew are the stats!

3- You can fire an anti-tank gun with just one model at full effect (so why have 3 crew?.

The crew number was taken from the historic crew numbers..

4- And if you do use just one crewman, the chances are he can't be seen behined the gunshield and therefore cannot be targeted anyway so cannot be shot at.

Maybe from the front, depends on your minis, but definately from the sides.

1- The tank will get first shot unless you set up a game where tanks set up first with no obstacles and guns get first turn, otherwise tanks will get first shot by using cover.

2- Don't work, as the crew will probably not be able to be targeted due to the guns shield.

3- Yup

4- And how the heck can you do that, unless terrain and deployment specifically allows it.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I thought gun shields made you count the benefits of being under cover, not made you invulnerable??

If the crew could hide behind the gun shield and fire out, but a tank could not shoot them because of the gunshield then the ATG would be invulnerable to tank fire. I doubt that is what Agis intended?

I am still a bit confused about ATG's I will reread the rules and think about it a bit

 

[Hiromoon]

1. Well, if the tank moves up and shoots, it has to re-roll (if you're playing with the advanced rules). So the chances of hitting a properly positioned AT gun do down.

2. Counts as cover...not as 'I can't see you'. You can still draw line of sight to the crewmen.

4. Drive around them? Flank them? Move infantry in front? Think of the ways and then try them out!

 

[hithero]

1. Well, if the tank moves up and shoots, it has to re-roll (if you're playing with the advanced rules). So the chances of hitting a properly positioned AT gun do down.

2. Counts as cover...not as 'I can't see you'. You can still draw line of sight to the crewmen.

4. Drive around them? Flank them? Move infantry in front? Think of the ways and then try them out!

1- Needs a 2-3 on a D10 (depending on gun), not exactly difficult IF you can see a crewman.

2- Still need to get sight of that crewman.

4- Assuming of course that the AT gun has no buddies around to help, and of course showing you own flank to the enemy in trying to outflank .

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Seems gun crews also get a dodge score

Slight change of subject - Artillery it says artillery counts as elevated fire. Elevated fire says vehicles count their "Armour" saves as -1. is "Armour" the target vale, the save value or both of the above?

Still can't work out which target facing you use for artillery V tanks?????

Andy

 

[Hiromoon]

Condensing 1 & 2 together: Which is were placing your AT gun properly becomes important. If you can draw a bead on the tank before it gets a chance to pop a shot off at you... tada!.


4: Exactly.

 

[Rabidchild]

is "Armour" the target vale, the save value or both of the above?

Target is what you roll to hit them, Kill is what you roll to do 2 hits to them, Armor is what they roll to avoid hits.

Arty doesn't say which facing you use against vehicles because it follows normal rules. Though personally I would let any arty who's center-point is on a vehicle use the rear facing.

 

[JayRaider]

Choose a sniper or two.
Those anti-tank gun crews are toast.

 

[Agis]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Exactly.

Seems gun crews also get a dodge score

Why so? Where is the dodge score mentioned?

 

[hithero]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Andy

The main rules state that you must be able to see a target to be able to shoot them (page 17 Line of Sight). Gun crew figures are generally all nicely huddled up or kneeling down, these figues are placed in their correct positions on the gun and cannot be seen therefore cannot be targeted (even by snipers). Extremely easy to do if you only use one crewman.

 

[tneva82]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Andy

The main rules state that you must be able to see a target to be able to shoot them (page 17 Line of Sight). Gun crew figures are generally all nicely huddled up or kneeling down, these figues are placed in their correct positions on the gun and cannot be seen therefore cannot be targeted (even by snipers). Extremely easy to do if you only use one crewman.

Now that's gamey to extreme! They can't load the gun and shoot it without exposing themselves anyway so in return I could claim they can't shoot while they are hiding behind the gun shield...

Don't think models as static. The gunners would be moving around and doing their work rather than staying staticly in kneeling pose.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Exactly.

Seems gun crews also get a dodge score

Why so? Where is the dodge score mentioned?

Agis,
I was looking at an ATG, I think it was the british 6pdr? on the save line it had 6+/6+ i believe if there are two values the first is armour and the 2nd is dodge? I had a look and anti tank gun crews seem to be almost the only people who actually get a dodge. Did I get it wrong?

Sorry about the suggestion you can recrew ATG's if that is not in the rules it is another set I read a week or so ago, got mixed up The 6+/6+ save is deffinitely in your rules though

Andy

 

[Agis]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Andy

The main rules state that you must be able to see a target to be able to shoot them (page 17 Line of Sight). Gun crew figures are generally all nicely huddled up or kneeling down, these figues are placed in their correct positions on the gun and cannot be seen therefore cannot be targeted (even by snipers). Extremely easy to do if you only use one crewman.

Now that's gamey to extreme! They can't load the gun and shoot it without exposing themselves anyway so in return I could claim they can't shoot while they are hiding behind the gun shield...

Don't think models as static. The gunners would be moving around and doing their work rather than staying staticly in kneeling pose.

Can't agree more here. If the Gun crew can shoot - it can be shot at - simple! Think of the Gun and the crew as one mini with 3 hits!
Also the other gun cre must still be in unit coherence!

By gaming to the extreme (nice term BTW) it is possible to model a gun emplacement as described, but if someone would try to pull a stunt like this in a game it would be my 1st and last game wilh that fellow...

 

[hithero]

You could claim all you want, but your gamey opponant is following the rules and you are not, should you face this type of opponant at a competition which Mongoose do run themselves, you don't have a leg to stand on. Personally in the games with my friends this would never happen, but the more we play the more we find the rules buggy, innacurate and incomplete - but I hasten to add (as I'm alway's finding problems and seem to be nothing but a whiner) one of my favourite games, it just needed more proofreading and playtesting or listening to playtesters comments.