Anti Tank Guns V Tanks

[hithero]

Agis, can you please elaborate on the 'one mini with three hits' idea and how that works and if the written rule allows it, or would it be a house rule?

 

[Agis]

I rechecked the rules and they seem quite clear that artillery crew behind gun shield count as under cover. Nothing about being invisible.

Exactly.

Seems gun crews also get a dodge score

Why so? Where is the dodge score mentioned?

Agis,
I was looking at an ATG, I think it was the british 6pdr? on the save line it had 6+/6+ i believe if there are two values the first is armour and the 2nd is dodge? I had a look and anti tank gun crews seem to be almost the only people who actually get a dodge. Did I get it wrong?

Sorry about the suggestion you can recrew ATG's if that is not in the rules it is another set I read a week or so ago, got mixed up The 6+/6+ save is deffinitely in your rules though

Andy

6+/6+ - true. It is there for Sergeants of the 6-pdr and the British Para Engineer section...
I will look into it.

 

[Agis]

Agis, can you please elaborate on the 'one mini with three hits' idea and how that works and if the written rule allows it, or would it be a house rule?

It is the idea behind the rule.

 

[Laffe]

Agis, can you please elaborate on the 'one mini with three hits' idea and how that works and if the written rule allows it, or would it be a house rule?

I believe he means that you have to kill all three crew to knock out the gun. In effect, the gun has three hits, you just have to paint them as well :lol:

 

[Hiromoon]

You could claim all you want, but your gamey opponant is following the rules and you are not, should you face this type of opponant at a competition which Mongoose do run themselves, you don't have a leg to stand on. Personally in the games with my friends this would never happen, but the more we play the more we find the rules buggy, innacurate and incomplete - but I hasten to add (as I'm alway's finding problems and seem to be nothing but a whiner) one of my favourite games, it just needed more proofreading and playtesting or listening to playtesters comments.

Just to point out, if you can't draw line of sight to the gun crew because of the shield, they can't draw line of sight to you. Line of Sight works both ways.

Effectively, it's the rules mechanic that follows Murphey's Laws of Combat:
- Tracers work both ways.
- If you can see the flashes from the enemies' guns in battle, he can see yours too.
- If the enemy is within range, so are you.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I have never found a game that actually got more fun from being played in a "tournament" sort of mindset.

 

[DM]

Effectively, it's the rules mechanic that follows Murphey's Laws of Combat:
- Tracers work both ways.
- If you can see the flashes from the enemies' guns in battle, he can see yours too.
- If the enemy is within range, so are you.

Of course, as in all laws there are loopholes (for a naval example see the battle of North Cape as a good one for #2!)

I could see someone arguing that an ATG gunshield has slits in it for the optics to poke through, so the gunner figure could see out - and so I guess you could then argue that the optics could be damaged by gunfire and so there is no LOS issue. Still, maybe we shouldn't get too hung up on this - as Agis has said in the past its a game, not a simulation.

 

[Agis]

You could claim all you want, but your gamey opponant is following the rules and you are not, should you face this type of opponant at a competition which Mongoose do run themselves, you don't have a leg to stand on. Personally in the games with my friends this would never happen, but the more we play the more we find the rules buggy, innacurate and incomplete - but I hasten to add (as I'm alway's finding problems and seem to be nothing but a whiner) one of my favourite games, it just needed more proofreading and playtesting or listening to playtesters comments.

As said in the above replies: LoS works both ways. Hiromoon summed it up real good.

As far as "following the rules" is concerned please re-check the army lists again:
Quote: "Unit: Sergeant (unit leader) with a Sten SMG, Soldier with a 6 pdr Anti-Tank Gun (FaF), Soldier with a Lee-Enfield rifle."
So in WaW it is the soldier armed with the gun, the soldier checks LoS, not the gun!

BTW: The tone of your reply sound quite agressive to me, please tone down a bit. :evil:
Not everything is wrong or a typo, sometimes the reader just get's it wrong! :wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[Desiato]

The main rules state that you must be able to see a target to be able to shoot them (page 17 Line of Sight). Gun crew figures are generally all nicely huddled up or kneeling down, these figues are placed in their correct positions on the gun and cannot be seen therefore cannot be targeted (even by snipers). Extremely easy to do if you only use one crewman.

I’ve checked the book found two rules which may be relevant:

- Models in Cover can see through and can be seen through Cover, if the Cover is not too thick. See Page 19. This should be always possible for Gun Shields.
- The ATG will not block LoS to its crew if they are in same FZ, because the ATG belongs to the same Unit. See Page 17.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rabidchild]

Quote: "Unit: Sergeant (unit leader) with a Sten SMG, Soldier with a 6 pdr Anti-Tank Gun (FaF), Soldier with a Lee-Enfield rifle."

This is what I was looking for, thanks Agis. This solves the dilemma nicely. The other crew can hide all they want, but if the one with the gun is killed the gun is gone. I think I would have preferred to have stats for the gun like a vehicle, but this works just fine. (just put the gunner in the back/middle so he's not picked off!)

 

[hithero]

Quote: "Unit: Sergeant (unit leader) with a Sten SMG, Soldier with a 6 pdr Anti-Tank Gun (FaF), Soldier with a Lee-Enfield rifle."

This is what I was looking for, thanks Agis. This solves the dilemma nicely. The other crew can hide all they want, but if the one with the gun is killed the gun is gone. I think I would have preferred to have stats for the gun like a vehicle, but this works just fine. (just put the gunner in the back/middle so he's not picked off!)

Thia then doesn't follow Agis' rule of counting the weapon as having 3 wound and the rules say that you must have 1 model in contact, doesn't say what model and therefore any can. This is just another confusing rule, why couldn't it have just beed said that 'the gun has 3 crew armed with...' and I'm sure that any of the crew would be trained to fire the gun, not just one.

 

[Agis]

snip
Thia then doesn't follow Agis' rule of counting the weapon as having 3 wound and the rules say that you must have 1 model in contact, doesn't say what model and therefore any can. This is just another confusing rule, why couldn't it have just beed said that 'the gun has 3 crew armed with...' and I'm sure that any of the crew would be trained to fire the gun, not just one.

Rule, what rule? 8)
I was just describing (after request) the desgn idea behind the field guns, it is no rule. And the above posting is just a reminder that you can not draw LOS from the gun but the soldier!

 

[hithero]

So the other crew are surplus to requirements and cannot fire the gun then?

 

[RBREE]

Here's how I see it. Any one on the ATG crew can fire the weapon. They have been trained and drilled to use it. ANy one not in an artillary or ATG unit can not use it... no training. Other rules systems handel this by having an untrained penality (usuly a 50% penality) for non artillary personell.

Part of the redundancy in an artillary crew is to absorb casualties.

That's why it seems the gun has three hits... it actually has 3 guys who can fire it and once their gone so goes the ATG.

Question is can other ATG gunners move to re-personell the gun when the original cre is gone? FOr instance if you have three guns realativly close to one another could a crew member or two of the surviving guns move in to take over the uncrewed gun?

 

[rvrratt]

<Hands Agis two aspirin and a beer>

 

[Agis]

<Hands Agis two aspirin and a beer>

Big sigh... :roll:

 

[DM]

Agis, if you think this is fun JUST WAIT until your vehicle stat books come out!!!!!!

 

[Laffe]

Question is can other ATG gunners move to re-personell the gun when the original cre is gone? FOr instance if you have three guns realativly close to one another could a crew member or two of the surviving guns move in to take over the uncrewed gun?

NO!

Why? Because the rules don't say you can. Just because the rules don't say you can't, doesn't mean you can.

Back in the days of fourth edition warhammer the 'net was full of rules discussion like these. There's always someone who will have to have it spelled out in capital letters that you can do this, but not that. By sixth edition the GW boys had learned to take in the rules lawyers when writing rules...

You dig? 8)

 

[hithero]

These questions only arise when a rule defies any logic or real-life events, and when the rules say that only a single crewman has the ability to fire a gun, then well....

 

[Laffe]

Come on, guys how hard can it be???

1) Every gun has X number of crew (usually three). You have to kill them all to silence the gun.
2) There are no stats for the gun, because you fire at the crew.
3) The crew get cover from the gun shield.
4) You can fire at the crew if you can see the gun, even if the crew hides behind the gun shield.

To me, all the above seems logical and realistic. Only omission seems to be the re-crewing issue, but that is probably a game speed/balance thing, otherwise it would take forever to knock out a gun, and a beardy tactic would be to buy lots of cheap squads to hang around near any guns. You could do a house rule if you wanted to though.