Another sidebar: Why I do not hate d20 Conan

[rabindranath72]

I take the liberty, as another illustrious poster has done, of creating a sidebar. It's for use of the "pathetically dense" people like me, and in the hope that in the future my opinion (and perhaps those of others "d20 haters") will not be misconstrued as personal attacks to other posters or (worse yet) to Mongoose.

It's not d20 Conan per se the issue with the game, or its implementation, or the parts that make it different from D&D; it's the d20 part (the 90%+ baseline) of the game, and the fact that the most troublesome parts are retained in the game as-is (skills, feats, typed bonuses, combat system, and their various interactions), which irks people who do not like d20 Conan.

So, it's not a shot at Mongoose when d20 Conan is criticised. If at all, the critics are to the creators of those d20 game parts.

Now, when people say that they love d20 Conan and hate D&D, I suppose they love the modifications to the baseline, and not the baseline itself; and in this, I think ALL can agree that Mongoose did an excellent job. If not, I would not have bothered buying anything at all; though I only buy the books with mostly fluff (sadly there have been very few in the last two years).

Most of the time though, I admit I get the impression that d20 Conan lovers do not want to be associated with D&D 3e at all, so they take a sort of "elitist" attitude, which in light of the baseline seems a bit weird.

But perhaps Mongoose now has decided to create another d20 Conan iteration, without feats, skills etc. which might be played in a more casual way, like Castles & Crusades


EDIT: I see my post was not clear enough. I am NOT stating that RQ is better than d20 (or any other system, at that; I do not like RQ particularly, too). I am only stating why I DO NOT LIKE d20.

EDIT REDUX: people does not seem to get the concept that saying that I do not like d20 is not meant to be an insult to THEM or THEIR FAMILIES or THEIR WAY OF LIFE. OR ANYTHING VALUABLE.

IT'S ONLY

A

DARN

GAME!!

 

[Strom]

Can I come over and tell you how ugly your wife is in your own house? Huh? Can I? :lol:

If you say yes then you can imagine the feeling us fans of the current Conan RPG feel when everyone tells us our wife (system) is ugly in our own (house) forum.

Worst yet - everyone tells us their wife (RQ) is better looking and does more things and is much easier!

We have seen that woman (RQ) from the early eighties and she has some serious mileage on that frame. Sure she has had a makeover but she will ain't aged well, In Our Opinion.

Personally I would love to see the two broads fight it out in bikinis but that ain't gonna happen.

So buckle up and expect the punch to the nose everytime you come over to our house (forum) from your house (RQ forum) and start telling us how ugly our wife (OGL & D20) is.

Don't mean we can't meet on the porch and talk football. Have you seen Naughty Spice? Now that is D&D 4e. :lol:

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Can I come over and tell you how ugly your wife is in your own house? Huh? Can I? :lol:

If you say yes then you can imagine the feeling us fans of the current Conan RPG feel when everyone tells us our wife (system) is ugly in our own (house) forum.

Worst yet - everyone tells us their wife (RQ) is better looking and does more things and is much easier!

We have seen that woman (RQ) from the early eighties and she has some serious mileage on that frame. Sure she has had a makeover but she will ain't aged well, In Our Opinion.

Personally I would love to see the two broads fight it out in bikinis but that ain't gonna happen.

So buckle up and expect the punch to the nose everytime you come over to our house (forum) from your house (RQ forum) and start telling us how ugly our wife (OGL & D20) is.

Don't mean we can't meet on the porch and talk football. Have you seen Naughty Spice? Now that is D&D 4e. :lol:

This is the problem, isnt it? Im sure youre not being entirely serious are you?

Its not about wives. And its not YOUR house or front porch or whatever. Its a forum about games and their systems, and everyone who has an interest in these things has a right to comment. Just relax, dont read between the lines to see personal insults that may or may not be be there, just enjoy the fact that youre not the only one who plays the game, or has an opinion.

 

[Hervé]

Strom, this forum is as much "your house" as it is mine, no matter what I think of the rules (which were not designed by Mongoose for the most part, anyway). Although we may disagree on some matters, our conversations have always been friendly and constructive something that have never been possible with the most zealous criticizers.

I'm a long time regular Mongoose customer and I bought every Conan book so far since the Pre Atlantean Edition, including French versions. I don't limit myself to the Conan range and buy also books from the RQ line, Eternal Champion, Slaine, Judge Dredd and more...

As such, I feel I have the right to speak my mind about products I bought with good money even if a bunch of self proclaimed (they just love these words!) righteous judge and jury morons would like to dictate my behaviour. These jerks are (fortunately) not working for Mongoose and as such, they have no more right than I have on these boards. As far as I am concerned, they can go to hell before I care of their whining.

Some have been accusing me of criticizing Mongoose, something I never did. Both in my shop and on these forums (and others), I always did my best to support Mongoose as an editor.

I don't like the current system of the Conan rules, that's a fact everyone's aware of. It doesn't prevent me to have a good knowledge of it, gained through four years of heavy gaming and playtesting. As I told many times before, I ran Conan games with many different systems before deciding what was good or not for the setting. And to quote a recent post from kintire, I'd say "D20 Conan is not good for Conan".

No one at Mongoose never told me I should praise the D20 system. Only a handful of narrow minded fanatics ( :mrgreen: They're gonna love this one!!!) would like to deny what my forefathers fought and died for: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

I will continue to speak my mind and if you don't like it, you can apply your own advices to yourself: Go on another forum.

 

[Halfbat]

I'm pleased you don't hate d20 Conan.

For one, I'd happily agree with your suggestion that the Mongoose implementation of d20 is good - in fact I think it's the best implementation of d20 I've seen. Mongoose built themselves on the back of the d20 explosion and it's great that they've done something so good with it that fits the genre so well.

It's almost as if Conan d20 is Mongoose's Pathfinder.

Could it be simplified? Could it be extended to allow more heroic combat options (whether as feats or something else)? Yes, to both. Is it worth producing another version of Conan d20 right now with a radical overhaul? And then updating all the previous books to match it? Not for an incremental increase, no. It's a trick: both the opening questions to this paragraph can almost always result in the answer "Yes" from someone.

As for RQ vs d20 vs something else? ::shrugs:: d20 has been so heavily used that many of its bugs and complications have really come to light. Is another system perfect? Hmmm.... have a look at the RQ forums. But that's the point of your confession, I guess: one can see the good and the bad in both.


But as to whether or not my wife is perfect on these forums...? :wink: ::sighs:: Of course she is. :lol: :roll:

 

[Azgulor]

The nuance that is being overlooked/ignored is the following: the need/desire to slam the Conan RPG in any thread or topic. No one is suggesting denying someone freedom of speech. The rights of most civilized countries effectively allow someone to be an ass via free speech. Doesn't mean that they should do so.

As an example:

Thread topic: Why no hit location in Conan?
Reply: "Well, you can have hit locations in RQ. The lack of hit locations made it seem less visceral to me and was one of the reasons I didn't care for the Conan RPG. I just couldn't come up with a hit location system that works for me. But here's how RQ handles hit locations...

vs.

Thread topic: Thieves Guilds/Cartels of Zamora - good sources of info/inspiration?
Reply: Yeah, maybe someday Mongoose will give Conan a real system like RQ instead of a crappy d20 game, which is completely wrong for representing the setting and genre, and they'll write a RQ Thief supplement.

Obviously, people can write their post however they wish. But of the two examples given above, don'tcha think one is more antagonistic or inflammatory than the other? It IS possible to exchange ideas on the Internet without making an attack and without somebody "losing".

The unnecessary antagonism towards the Conan RPG and its fans is what most of the pro-Conan camp are objecting to - not the fact that someone likes RQ (or any other game).

 

[flatscan]

Sigh, apologies in advance if this reads harsh. It's just the 50 thousandth time I've danced this jig and the tune's grown old.

It really is funny because all the reasons you've pointed out as to what you hate about d20 are things that I love. Feats are awesome and allow an immense amount of customization for your character so he's not just another soldier who looks the same except for his stats. Tactical combat floats my groups boat too. What's RuneQuest's solution to this? Percentages...really??? That's somehow better? I'm baffled by this reasoning but it comes down to a matter of taste. It seems that the guys on this board who are all nuts out about RuneQuest have a long history with the game. It's a system that works for them and that's great. Mongoose has released THE MOST SUCCESSFUL CONAN GAME LINE IN RPG HISTORY using OGL. You don't like it, great, don't buy the products and leave. Because there are some of us here that LOVE this system, much as Strom illustrated with the wife metaphor. It does everything we need it to and it does it well. You don't have to marry it. Find another system you love and stick with that. But goddammit, do we need ANOTHER frakkin' post bemoaning that Conan isn't in your favorite system??? The same posters start these damn topics up on a monthly basis. Hell, this month it's on a weekly basis. Do you really think you're accomplishing anything? It's been years Herve (and I'm singling you out because of the derogatory comments aimed at OGL supporters), and Mongoose still hasn't made that RQ Conan. Do you think this month will be the month it happens?

As to free speech, this is a common misinterpretation of law. In the U.S. we have the first amendment in our Bill of Rights. That's a guarantee the GOVERNMENT will not limit our speech. Message boards are a private forum. Mongoose can edit or delete your posts for any reason they choose and it doesn't violate your rights in the least. They haven't done that, and you call us OGL supporters fanatics, among other names. But all your railing hasn't achieved what you wanted to achieve. Is the plan just to keep on trying each month in the hope that someday, Mongoose will turn its back on this incredibly successful line and just say, "frak it. RuneQuest isn't selling all that great, especially competing with BRP, but lets hack Conan into it and immediately lose 50% of our customer base?" Because, they've given no indications of having any desire to do this. Books like the Warrior's Companion show there's a market out there for OGL Conan material STILL. Live with it.

 

[smiorgan]

Mongoose will turn its back on this incredibly successful line and just say, "frak it. RuneQuest isn't selling all that great, especially competing with BRP, but lets hack Conan into it and immediately lose 50% of our customer base?" .

Oh that's interesting. Do you have any kind of evidence that RQ isn't selling well and that it has to do with BRP or it's pure speculation?
I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to make any point in the RQ vs OGL Conan discussion.

My admittedly speculative and impressionistic view is that BRP and MRQ do not detract but, on the contrary, drive each other's sales - albeit on different scales. It is quite possible that MRQ has slowed down recently, but that's because it's now a "mature" line (look at the number of supplements!). That's why Mongoose will be launching MRQ2 in 2010 (it's not official but it's certainly not a secret).


Smiorgan

 

[flatscan]

Oh that's interesting. Do you have any kind of evidence that RQ isn't selling well and that it has to do with BRP or it's pure speculation?
I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to make any point in the RQ vs OGL Conan discussion.

I have only my observations on RuneQuests sales. Here in Austin the BRP book can't be kept in stock. The RQ books just sit on the shelves collecting dust. On Amazon, RuneQuest is at: Amazon.com Sales Rank: #482,815 in Books. Conan is: Amazon.com Sales Rank: #275,794 in Books. BRP is: Amazon.com Sales Rank: #155,925 in Books.

 

[Demetrio]

There may be a reason for RQ's poor Amazon showing in that some fans of the Conan books might well have bought the game but RQ has no similar source to draw from in the wider (ie non-rpg gamer) community.

I agree with you about Feats, they're easily one of the more appealing aspects of d20. The problem I have with them is that they are doled out rather meanly and that despite the huge and ever expanding variety, a lot are poor picks whereas a few are pretty much 'must haves', which rather detracts from the idea, which is to give as wide a variation in characters as possible. What i always hated about pre-feat D&D was that character abilities were entirely fixed by class and there was no variation at all between characters of the same class and level in terms of capabilities other than stats, weapon choice (and spell picks for casters).

Other games have feat-like abilities (showing that the concept is pretty damn popular) but no game that I have seen provide both wide variety and real choice. Obviously feats will never be perfectly balanced but that's no excuse for having gross imbalance as exists in probably all games that have feats or feat-like abilities (and I include Savage Worlds etc in this).


Somewhere (maybe in the other thread) d20 was criticised because its basic concept was designed around 10 levels and so it becomes 'broken' beyond that. But original RQ was designed around a general 100% cap on skills, only certain, restricted skills for specific characters (Rune Lords) being permitted above this base. It was my observation, based on extensive play in the 80s, that RQ became 'broken' once combat skills got more than about 130%.

 

[flatscan]

There may be a reason for RQ's poor Amazon showing in that some fans of the Conan books might well have bought the game but RQ has no similar source to draw from in the wider (ie non-rpg gamer) community.

That's certainly a possibility. But why is it then that TSR Conan nor GURPS Conan had the success that Mongoose Conan has? Both only had a handful of releases compared to the 40 products released for the current game. I believe a good number of people that buy the MongConan books are playing the game, or at least more interested in playing it than just casual Conan collecting, but my only evidence towards this is anecdotal at best.

 

[Demetrio]

That's a good point. But was Amazon as popular when those games were released?

I'm not saying you're wrong by the way, it was just something I thought might account for the difference.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting they were merely collecting, more that seeing the game they bought it with the intention to play it, but because it was Conan. If you see what I mean.

 

[flatscan]

That's a good point. But was Amazon as popular when those games were released?

Huh? Are you asking about TSR Conan and GURPS Conan? Because I'm not comparing the Amazon rankings of those two since they were out of print when Amazon was created. If you're asking about RuneQuest and BRP...well yeah, I'd say Amazon's popularity has been fairly constant this decade when all three of those books were released (talking about Mongoose RuneQuest, Conan 2e, and the BRP Chaosium book that was released last year).

 

[Demetrio]

I was talking about the GURPS and TSR.

Because I'm not comparing the Amazon rankings of those two since they were out of print when Amazon was created

Yes, that's what I thought. My point was that they might have done better exposed to a wider 'Conan' market that Amazon is possibly providing to d20 Conan

 

[Strom]

Can I come over and tell you how ugly your wife is in your own house? Huh? Can I? :lol:

If you say yes then you can imagine the feeling us fans of the current Conan RPG feel when everyone tells us our wife (system) is ugly in our own (house) forum.

Worst yet - everyone tells us their wife (RQ) is better looking and does more things and is much easier!

We have seen that woman (RQ) from the early eighties and she has some serious mileage on that frame. Sure she has had a makeover but she will ain't aged well, In Our Opinion.

Personally I would love to see the two broads fight it out in bikinis but that ain't gonna happen.

So buckle up and expect the punch to the nose everytime you come over to our house (forum) from your house (RQ forum) and start telling us how ugly our wife (OGL & D20) is.

Don't mean we can't meet on the porch and talk football. Have you seen Naughty Spice? Now that is D&D 4e. :lol:

This is the problem, isnt it? Im sure youre not being entirely serious are you?

Its not about wives. And its not YOUR house or front porch or whatever. Its a forum about games and their systems, and everyone who has an interest in these things has a right to comment. Just relax, dont read between the lines to see personal insults that may or may not be be there, just enjoy the fact that youre not the only one who plays the game, or has an opinion.

Try the decaf dude - it's an analogy. Look it up. My whole point - what's up Hervé? - is just that when you express your views don't cry foul when we hit you in the nose (figuratively - obviously not literally) back because we like the Mongoose Conan RPG. This is the Conan RPG forum - not the RQ Conan forum - although you guys are certainly more vocal.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Can I come over and tell you how ugly your wife is in your own house? Huh? Can I? :lol:

If you say yes then you can imagine the feeling us fans of the current Conan RPG feel when everyone tells us our wife (system) is ugly in our own (house) forum.

Worst yet - everyone tells us their wife (RQ) is better looking and does more things and is much easier!

We have seen that woman (RQ) from the early eighties and she has some serious mileage on that frame. Sure she has had a makeover but she will ain't aged well, In Our Opinion.

Personally I would love to see the two broads fight it out in bikinis but that ain't gonna happen.

So buckle up and expect the punch to the nose everytime you come over to our house (forum) from your house (RQ forum) and start telling us how ugly our wife (OGL & D20) is.

Don't mean we can't meet on the porch and talk football. Have you seen Naughty Spice? Now that is D&D 4e. :lol:

This is the problem, isnt it? Im sure youre not being entirely serious are you?

Its not about wives. And its not YOUR house or front porch or whatever. Its a forum about games and their systems, and everyone who has an interest in these things has a right to comment. Just relax, dont read between the lines to see personal insults that may or may not be be there, just enjoy the fact that youre not the only one who plays the game, or has an opinion.

Try the decaf dude - it's an analogy. Look it up. My whole point - what's up Hervé? - is just that when you express your views don't cry foul when we hit you in the nose (figuratively - obviously not literally) back because we like the Mongoose Conan RPG. This is the Conan RPG forum - not the RQ Conan forum - although you guys are certainly more vocal.

Hee! Thats the second time Ive been patronized by you pro-D20 guys! I like the way too, that Flatscan starts his posts with a condescending, 'sigh'.
Have you ever wondered why it is that 'every month' someone comes along and starts up a thread about not liking the OGL? And. of course, when someone mentions free speech, someone always has to answer by redefining the term.

Man, I'll say again, the forum is about opinion. You may not like other people's opinions, you may be tired of hearing them, you may be tired of defending your chosen game system. You dont have to. You can ignore/block/ or otherwise forget other people's opinions.

Thing is, if you decide to reply to these pro-RQ Conan posts, its not going to help if you treat people like morons.

 

[Hervé]

Strom wrote:

My whole point - what's up Hervé? - is just that when you express your views don't cry foul when we hit you in the nose (figuratively - obviously not literally) back because we like the Mongoose Conan RPG. This is the Conan RPG forum - not the RQ Conan forum - although you guys are certainly more vocal.

More vocal? Look again, pal. 90% of kintire's posts are direct critics against another user of these boards...
It's not because I'd like to see a MRQ version of Conan that MRQ is my favourite system, far from it. It is not even the engine I use in my games. Some know-it-all-people would like you to believe I support a "favoured system", which is not the case. Even if I still think the MRQ rules would be better, they are far from being perfect.

I "cry foul" (to quote your own words) when my critics against a game engine are answered by direct attacks on my person. I don't care about about people defending D20 or spitting on RQ but I won't stand when petty hypocrites are lecturing me on objectivity and good faith, when they are the ones who are first harassing people, the ones that defend a "preferred system", claim to be "objective" or that make personal attacks on people they don't agree with.

I've been accused of many things, including using the words of "D20 terrorism" and "D20 facism", among others. That's true. One thing "Mr Quote" always forget to say is that these words were always used in ANSWER of others posts that would deny my free will. "D20 terrorism" was used in answer of the numerous "if you change I quit" posts against Mongoose (by the same guys who pretend to support Mongoose!!) and "D20 facism" was used in answer of posts that tell me I don't have the right to talk of other systems or criticize D20 on these very boards.

Kintire is quite a master at taking sentences out of their contest and then make the words say what he would like to. And then he talks about objectivity...

Let’s go back to the sentence that started it all:

Now, that's bad news... . I almost thought for a time the Hyborian world was about to have a decent rule system... We"ll have to stick to lousy D20, then, in a Dysneylike world where all barbarians rage, all thieves sneak attack, all guards are 2nd level soldiers and all pirates tie better knots when aboard a ship... Endless Feats and number crunching. That's not the future I would have foreseen for a fast paced savage S&S setting

.

Of course, it's not very kind with D20... But it's not a direct attack against anyone, just a game related personal opinion, put in a rather humorous way that have been answered by ad hominem attacks.

The only person that could feel insulted about it is perhaps Monte Cook himself.

It is just that kintire and Azgulor would like to force me to think as they want. And most everytime, the two are responding with direct insults and personal attacks. They 're the ones that start a flamewar all the time. They speak of “self proclaimed master of objectivity”, something I never claimed I was, but something the two of them hold as a banner, behaving like some rightful lessons giving jerks.

Speaking of objectivity...
Azgulor wrote:

These threads would be 1000% more constructive if people talked about their game, campaign, characters, etc. But someone within the anti-OGL crowd always has to take a shot at the Conan RPG. Then someone pipes in saying "Hey waitaminute, I don't agree.", and we get multiple posts of how the "OGL Zealots" are "attacking" the RuneQuest fans. It's BS.

That’s not what’s happening. Most of the recent posts of people like kintire(or yours) have been direct attacks against me, just because I don’t like YOUR favourite system. It’s really been a while since I saw you two posting something positive of these forums. You even started a thread out to lynch me and all those who don’t agree with you and then you dare talking about constructive threads? Don’t make me laugh…

So when kintire caught you in such a flagrantly un-objective statement, I laughed out loud and tweaked you a little. The “all in good fun” was meant sincerely. Clearly, you found no humor in it, so I apologize. I should have realized friendly sparring wasn’t an option, either.

My original post wasn’t written as “flagrantly un-objective statement” but rather as a pun. So it seems you cannot stand a joke yourself, heh?

Yes, just like in the 4th Edition thread where you blatantly insulted me when I didn’t say a single word against D20 in the whole thread. Even when the others participants of the thread told you I’ve done nothing and that you’ve gone too far, you didn’t go for a single word of excuse, showing of much of a moron you are.

Now you’re talking to me about humor?
Go to hell.

Unlike the pro-RQ camp that comes here to bash the Conan RPG, however, I haven't taken any shots at RQ itself.

No, but you don’t either fall on the ones who do, preferring a one side justice…
Another difference we have is that I’ve been running Conan games long before D20 was created and I tested many systems using this setting. I gave D20 its chance for 4 years,for some 40 or 50 sessions involving at least a dozen of different players, some them D20 friendly and some who were not. I delved deeply into the rules and also playtested a few books for the ‘Goose. When I say the system doesn’t fit with the world, it’s just not a feeling. It is based on a long gaming experience and playtest.
You just pretend D20 Conan is the best, but you never tried anything else. Another good lesson of objectivity…

Kudos on being a playtester. I can only hope you used a more discerning eye to understanding the rules and giving them a fair shot than what's exhibited by your ability to read, understand, and respond to forum posts.

And you feel insulted when I say “D20 is a lousy system”… What should rabindranath72 feel after such sentences ?

Thinking of it, I didn't see the RQ fans explode in a righteous wrath when the very people feeling insulted here made fun of gloranthan ducks in a recent post... Again, it seem that "d20 justice" is pretty one sided.

And there was this one, too, very recently:

Flatscan wrote:

It is disheartening to see so many posters on this board blast OGL for a crap system like RuneQuest of all things.

Hey you two of the Righful Objectivity brigade! Fall down on Flatscan: he speaks badly of a Mongoose game on a Mongoose forum!

I know of some that have been put to the stake for less than that…

But here, Laurel & Hardy don’t say a thing. They rather lecture people on objectivity…

As far as I go, Flatscan has the right to say what he thinks about RQ.

Something Dumb & Dumber would deny me.

 

[rabindranath72]

Kudos on being a playtester. I can only hope you used a more discerning eye to understanding the rules and giving them a fair shot than what's exhibited by your ability to read, understand, and respond to forum posts.

And you feel insulted when I say “D20 is a lousy system”… What should rabindranath72 feel after such sentences ?

Do not worry Herve' :lol: I have a pretty thick skin. Besides, I get offended only if someone tells something truthful about my person. Since the guy does not know me at all, nor my learning capabilities, he has just wasted some bandwidth :wink:

 

[rabindranath72]

You can ignore/block/ or otherwise forget other people's opinions.

Can you do it? I would gladly put on ignore one or two people here.

 

[The King]

Can I come over and tell you how ugly your wife is in your own house? Huh? Can I? :lol:

I would never say this. I'd rather say: ok bring your wife (or may be I'll come in your house), I'll "try" her, bring some beer for you and then go to another. Sometimes I could go even farther as to try special things you hadn't imagine.

All the time saying please to meet you (before) and I was a pleasure to have some time with you (after).

And if one of your wives doesn't appeal to me, I would never say she's hugly, but rather I'm too tired or whatsoever.

To conclude in this diplomatical tour, I'd say your wife is certainly very interesting, has undeniably some advantages and we propably definitely want to reach the most perfect orgasm through lecherous pleasures and though we both love the same usual positions as well as those explained in the kama-sutra, we somehow don't fit together.