Another One Bites the Dust....

[Stormwalker]

Happy as I am to hear the news on an EC line (the presentation looks great) it leaves me less than impressed to find out that a RQ setting book (well I thought it was - but seems I was wrong - I'll call it RQ-based instead :wink: ) includes the rules again even if it is "only" less than 50 pages.

Why do I have to pay for them again? Can't the books be written to explain what bits are relevant in the main rules and leave it at that? Chaosium did this with CoC Dark Ages - I thought I was buying an expansion when I got a load of stuff I already had. Very disappointing.

I note from product information the Hawkmoon book is 160 pages (suspect this is the same for Elric yes?). This means that approximately one third of the page count is of no use to those possessing the existing RQ rules. Lankhmar didn't go down this "standalone" route - it too was 160 pages but it was all setting-specific.

Hell, while I'm on my soapbox here, the one thing that really annoyed me about Lankmar was the page count (25!!!) given to the lengthy synopsis of the stories. Surely one should read the actual novels to get this? I can see from the Hawkmoon preview that it has something similar... so possibly that's another fair chunk of the book that is unnecessary for anyone familiar with the setting. So far from the 160 pages I'm looking at less than 100 that's of any use.

Surely there's more to the Young Kingdoms and the Tragic Millennium than can be contained in effectively <100 page books?

 

[Baron Meliadus]

I hope the EC series will be a great deal longer than just 160 pages, especially if 50 of them are reprinted rules! :?

Lankhmar was 160 pages by itself, and that was without rules. I would have thought Hawkmoon and Elric could easily fill 160 pages of campaign content without even trying. In fact looking through my game collection, the Chaosium Hawkmoon monograph is 75 pages (and that's just a general gazetteer without any game rules, magic, significant list of technological items, maps, decent artwork or a story arc) and the later versions of Elric/Stormbringer are almost 300 pages, two thirds of which are actual setting information rather than rules.

If Mongoose's 'Conan the Roleplaying Game' campaign setting book is 350 pages long, why on earth can't a Hawkmoon or Elric setting book be at least 250 or 300 pages long too?

If I have to pay for the RQ rules again, then I hope there's going to be more than just a hundred pages of solid campaign material to make the purchase worthwhile. Otherwise yes, I think there will be another 'CoC Dark Ages' style backlash of people who might feel somewhat ripped off.

Surely a 'campaign setting book' should actually be filled with campaign source material? Or am I being totally foolish? :roll:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Why do I have to pay for them again?

And what about the people who do not have the RQ book yet? Do you think we might get complaints about them paying for two books not one?

Obviously, we could not please everyone - this was the most cost effective solution for most, especially if you could consider there is value in having everything in one place, rather than always carting (at least) two books around.

 

[MongooseMatt]

If Mongoose's 'Conan the Roleplaying Game' campaign setting book is 350 pages long, why on earth can't a Hawkmoon or Elric setting book be at least 250 or 300 pages long too?

Because of the time factors involved - Conan is being produced later this year, and is thus post printing facility. Hawkmoon and Elric are pre-printing facility and thus obey the constraints we were under with traditional printing.

So, why do we not delay them, re-write them, and then release them, eh?

Because that would take several months, it would knock Conan and all our other books back the same amount of time - and we would end up never releasing a book!

At the end of the day, the cost difference is marginal and, I hope, players do find the value of having everything in one place.

Surely a 'campaign setting book' should actually be filled with campaign source material? Or am I being totally foolish? :roll:

Not at all, you are correct - but that is the difference between a setting book and an RPG.

I should also point out that your comments have been noted and logged, and we will certainly give them full consideration when work starts on Corum.

Hope that explains things!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Why do I have to pay for them again?

And what about the people who do not have the RQ book yet? Do you think we might get complaints about them paying for two books not one?
.

or three or four etc etc depending on how many are required as "core rules"...

But as we early adopters have already suffered this (RQ and Companion should have been one volume, ditto Cults 1& 2, ditto (probably) Magic of Glorantha and the Players Guide...) it seems odd to change now...

But it is an eternal dilema, for which there is no right answer that will satisfy everyone.

More importantly - will the rules in the Eternal Champion books be right this time? or will they continue to disagree between the text and the examples? Will tables provided to adjudicate between the interaction of 4-state dice rolls contain more than three rows and columns? Will questions as to the applicability of the rules in the Eternal Champion books to Moorcock's world be answered by saying the rules are Generic and shouldn't be assumed to apply to the world stated in the rules to be the default?

I wouldn't necessarily object to buying a game which contained the RQ rules if they were done properly. I would object to buying ones in the same half-finished state as the original book

 

[Rurik]

If Mongoose's 'Conan the Roleplaying Game' campaign setting book is 350 pages long, why on earth can't a Hawkmoon or Elric setting book be at least 250 or 300 pages long too?

There is a Granbretan Sourcebook at 160 pages as well, so Hawkmoon has 320 pages total (including the reprinted rules) available come June.

I know it is spread over 2 books but I now these have been done for a while, long before the new press, so they were written in the strict 96/160 page limit days.

 

[Baron Meliadus]

I wouldn't necessarily object to buying a game which contained the RQ rules if they were done properly. I would object to buying ones in the same half-finished state as the original book

Agreed. But from my perspective if I was to invest in the EC line (after all most of Moorcocks best works involve characters jumping across the multiverse into different settings) then after buying Hawkmoon, Elric and Corum I would end up with three sets of 50 pages with identical core rules atop the ones already in my copy of MRQ.

Such repetition does become a little grating, especially if it has squeezed out setting information which is more useful to me.

The concept that printing the rules as part of the setting's book saves space on the number of books I need to carry is perhaps flawed, simply for the fact that in the apparent case of Hawkmoon, the core campaign information had so little space in the original book (presumably because of the addition of rule mechanics) that it has been split into two books anyway. So sadly I'd still need to carry two volumes.

However, my thanks to Mat Sprange for his forthright answers to my fears, and his promise to consider my opinions for future publications.

 

[Baron Meliadus]

I know it is spread over 2 books but I now these have been done for a while, long before the new press, so they were written in the strict 96/160 page limit days.

Sadly, that is a valid point.

Surely that is not the case for Elric though? I thought the new presses came before Elric was written? So will we see something larger than 160 pages for my second favorite campaign setting?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Surely that is not the case for Elric though? I thought the new presses came before Elric was written? So will we see something larger than 160 pages for my second favorite campaign setting?

I am afraid not - even the supplements were written and laid out before the presses came on line. However, in their case (because they are a little further back down the production line), we have been able to boost the content. You will see this become more common over the next few months until, later this year, we will be completely free of the legacy of traditional printing.

As for the comments of the previous poster, we still have time with Corum to alter what we do with it. If the consensus is 'no core rules!' then that is what we will do!

It is also worth remembering that, in terms of content at least, we will be supporting both games in Signs & Portents - one way or another, we will make sure you are getting more for your money.

 

[Baron Meliadus]

Surely that is not the case for Elric though? I thought the new presses came before Elric was written? So will we see something larger than 160 pages for my second favorite campaign setting?

I am afraid not - even the supplements were written and laid out before the presses came on line...

Umm, much as I hate to contradict you on this point, but the following were written on Planet Mongoose...

1) You made an announcement on 22/03/07 that "You may have heard mention, on our forums, of a new printing facility that Mongoose is currently putting together. From April onwards, all our printing will be done in the UK rather than China, as has become the norm in our industry.", and "All very exciting for us, you may think, but what benefits will you chaps see? Well, for a start, we will no longer be bound by the traditional pricing structure of another printer - this is what leads RPG books to be of a certain size because, for example, a 160 page book might actually be cheaper to print than a 152 page book. This leads you to certain formats of books - such as the 96 page hardback that has started to sprout up across the market. Aside from content, the cost to us to actually produce, say, a 104 page book instead of a 96 page one is minimal, whereas in the past it might have amounted to a thousand Dollars or more."

2) Lawrence Whitaker announced on the 23/03/07 that "Work on my first assignments as a Mongoose writer is well underway. I can't say much more just yet, but patience is a virtue, as well as a cardgame, so all will be revealed in time."

3) Then on the 13/04/07 you stated "Well, our printing facility looks as if it will go online at the end of next week..."

Since it now appears that it was Mr Whitaker who was writing the Elric book and that he had obviously started on it near the end of March, he must have surely have only finished the manuscript someway through April, near the time you were proclaiming the Printers about to come on-line.

So with all due respect, I cannot understand why the book should have been forced into a 160 page format when you knew that the in-house printers would be working either just before, or just after, it was actually still being laid out.

Not that it matters now. Perhaps Mr Whitaker wasn't actually up to the job of writing more than 110 pages of Elric related campaign material, although that seems a little strange considering his past work on the EC line of products for Chaosium. :?

 

[Loz]

More importantly - will the rules in the Eternal Champion books be right this time? or will they continue to disagree between the text and the examples? Will tables provided to adjudicate between the interaction of 4-state dice rolls contain more than three rows and columns?

You wouldn't believe (or perhaps you would, I don't know) the amount of effort that went into trying to ensure consistency between examples, rules and getting things to reflect the Elric saga. There have been tweaks made and a great deal of thought has gone into how things work.

Will questions as to the applicability of the rules in the Eternal Champion books to Moorcock's world be answered by saying the rules are Generic and shouldn't be assumed to apply to the world stated in the rules to be the default?

I can't speak for Hawkmoon, but as far as Elric is concerned, I've gone for reflecting the saga, not striving, necessarily, for game balance (although not deliberately setting out to subvert it, either). Demons and Elementals are NASTY. Just as they are in the saga. If you mess with them, and it goes wrong, then those Persistence and Resilience rolls will prove necessary. Same goes for cults and the rules supporting them. If you start making deals with gods, then be prepared to mortgage your soul, because that's what it comes down to. And if you default on the payments? Well, your god is going to call in the debt. Oh, and that's not just Chaos - that's Law as well. So why do it? Well, the Lords of the Higher Planes reward their faithful well. Very well. Just like in the saga...

I hope this goes someway towards answering Baron Meliadus's jibes about how many pages I may or may not have written. I've always believed in quality over quantity, and, as a long time devotee of Elric, I wanted to make sure this book hit the spot.

 

[Baron Meliadus]

I hope this goes someway towards answering Baron Meliadus's jibes about how many pages I may or may not have written. I've always believed in quality over quantity, and, as a long time devotee of Elric, I wanted to make sure this book hit the spot.

Considering I actually liked your work on the Chaosium Hawkmoon Monograph, I am not belittling the quality of your work.

However, despite your tantalizing approach to the subject matter, I still fail to see how you can squeeze something which took Chaosium 200 pages to briefly illuminate into a page count of half that.

Can you honestly say that you have condensed a comprehensive list (with stats) of all the animals, demons and copious NPC's of the entire saga, (what appears to be) several entirely new magical systems, an in-depth gazetteer of the entire Young Kingdoms, a list of herbs and potions, the few (but awesomely powerful) magical items, a precis of the storyline, scenario ideas and genre, not to mention maps and (what initially seems decent) artwork into only 100 pages?

And can you say, hand on heart, that you couldn't have filled 50 pages more with useful gaming material, instead of having it used for replicated game mechanics. If the answer is 'No, there was no more to write" then I'll seal my lips, bow and exit stage left.

But if the answer is 'Yes, I was bursting to add lots more content" then I'll say why on earth didn't Mongoose increase the allocated page count to this book? Especially since a) their new presses were effectively in place so increased page numbers didn't matter, and b) they hadn't yet received conformation of the new contract with MM (read Planet Mongoose entry), thus Elric and Hawkmoon until today could not yet have been placed into the printing schedule!

Forgive my irritation, but despite promised support for the EC line in Signs and Portents, I'd much rather have all the original (or should that be fundamental) material printed in a single core volume.

If I end up purchasing either Hawkmoon or Elric, I just hope I won't be disappointed with the potentially scanty contents...

 

[vitalis6969]

I for one am happy that they are coming out with an Elric game. Can't wait to get it.

-V

 

[Sinisalo]

Whinge whinge whinge

 

[Quire]

Although I don't mind a good whinge myself, on this occasion I want to point out that I am delighted with the decision to include the core system in both the EC books, and hope that exactly the same is done with Corum.

And with the Von Bek book, which will probably be the greatest RPG ever. Yeah?

And with the Cornelius book, which you'll do after SpaceQuest, natch. Please? Ask Mike while you're still in his good books? Pretty please?

Pretty PRETTY please?



- Q

 

[Stormwalker]

Whinge whinge whinge

Trying to get this thread deleted are we? :wink:

 

[Baron Meliadus]

Whinge whinge whinge

Ah yes, I suppose it is just whinging. But perhaps it is constructive whinging, especially since the Slaine book has recently been upped to 206 pages.

 

[vitalis6969]

Ah yes, I suppose it is just whinging. But perhaps it is constructive whinging, especially since the Slaine book has recently been upped to 206 pages.

VERY true Your Excellency....

-V

 

[Xelee]

Well you can't please all of the people at once. However, since I am a potential new buyer, I am very pleased to see that EC series books will contain a ruleset. If I am going to try a game I like to be able to start with just one book.

I may not end up using part of that book (the rules) as our playtest with the SRD have just led me to throw my hands up in frustration and write a new system from the ground up. However, I will be buying the EC books for the setting. The manner in which setting specific rules are incorporated into a basic ruleset may even get me to use that ruleset or I might just put those setting specific rules into my own ruleset.

I happen to want all the chapters in the books, I like the synopsis of the books because it tells me what the rules writer thinks the setting is and lets me know up-front how I might want my campaign to differ, I like the rules sections because I always like rules to tinker with and of course I have bough the book because I am a Moorcock fan and I want the setting packaged for rpg play.

It's promising to see Mongoose (in the RPG net article) talking about customized printed content, perhaps when they have this up and running in a few years we can all have our books with just the chapters in them that we want.

 

[vitalis6969]

I may not end up using part of that book (the rules) as our playtest with the SRD have just led me to throw my hands up in frustration and write a new system from the ground up.

Really? What type of problems are you having??? Coming from an Interlock background, i.e. Cyberpunk 2020 etc. I have found them very easy to use and understand. Not implying that you don't understand them, but we have found them to be easy and a breeze.

-V