And it was all going so well... ...Magic of Glorantha

[CharlieMonster]

I was really enjoying Magic of Glorantha, it has got some really fantastic ideas in it and I love the EWF & their Dragon Magic. The stuff on Zistor and the Mechamagical Implants, even though they are like nothing ever seen in Glorantha are way cool. I like the snippets on Gark the Calm and the new Chaos gods (which hopefully will make CoG2), and the HeroQuest section is very nicely done.

But...

Three of the Chaos gods listed in the HeroQuest section are Xentha, Gorakiki & Kyger Litor. For some reason Darkness and Chaos have become single faction/enitity. This strikes me as a little odd as the Trolls have always despised Chaos. I mean yes they are pretty much evil, all-devouring, violent and lay waste to everything in sight, but they are not Chaotic. Arkat could never have faced and destroyed Nysalor without going through the Troll Adoption rites of Kyger Litor. I'm a little confused, not to say worried that Trolls are suddenly gonna be turned in the "Big Bad" of chaos.

You've done some sterling work here Aaron, so I don't want to get all reactionary, but iIf there is reason behind this I'd be interested to know what it is. I am worried that this is a misinterpretation of the background and does not bode well for the new Troll Book.

 

[Durand Durand]

From whose perspective is the book written? If it is from a Godlearner or Solar culture I don't see a reason why the Gods of Uz would not be considered Chaos. It all depends on the subjective truths of the author.

DD

 

[gamesmeister]

I don't imagine for one second that it's anything of the sort. No-one in their right mind would place trolls in the same category as chaos from a 'reality' point of view, any more than elves or dwarves or Orlanthi are.

Although I don't have the book yet, I assume that this is a GL / EWF perception, in the same way that the cultures sections were written in GtSA. If you live in fear of both scorpion men and trolls, you're quite likely to include both in the "It wants to kill me and eat me" category, and you're not likely to differentiate between the two.

Dont panic!

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Ah. This.

They're not Chaos gods. It'd be easier to say "Meh, typos, silly errors when I wasn't thinking," but here's the deal, C&P'd from a PM to Trifletraxor a while ago when I was asking his advice.

The Short Version: The God Learners aren't right about everything. Taking it as if the Second Age stuff was the *only* information out there (for the purposes of this example, not as a reference to my actual research) I wanted some of their beliefs to be 'misinterpreted' facts. These minor things in Magic of Glorantha, and the point is to explain them iaccurately in future products. For example, some God Learners find myths and heroquests where they believe Xentha was a Chaos deity, not a darkness deity. Things like this.

Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Glorantha knows that's hogwash, of course. But newbies just getting into it get the revelation of - in this case, the uz book - and seeing the trolls rage at how the myth-looters sometimes fundamentally misunderstand the cultures they are violating. Trolls are as anti-Chaos as you can get, after all, but the God Learners do make mistakes. They see the uz spill out of the earth in the Darkness and fight for territory; they see inhuman, monstrous gods leading the charge, and bang! All of a sudden, a bunch of them are looking into these myths as if Zorak Zoran was a black-hearted Chaos god - or more likely, they don't care about the nuances and just go for the loot.

Now, this was an intentional setup, because I wanted the sheer rage in later explanations and I wanted the unfairness of the Great Empires beating the piss out of the inhumans not only on account of clashing cultures, or a holy quest to change the world for the better, but also out of flawed prejudices that are pretty tragic in scope.

Obviously, I only mentioned this kind of thing a couple of times, since Magic of Glorantha is essentially a GL and EWF book. I loved the idea of a setup like this, where newbies read future books and say " Damn, all that violence over a tragic misunderstanding" or "Bloody hell, the God Learners really are divided and flawed sometimes, never agreeing on anything."

Which was followed by:

The tone of this little 'deception' is a key point. In Magic of Glorantha, they are throwaway references in the smaller chapters or just little paragraphs - they're by no means the meat of the book, which is God Learner and EWF jazz.

However, I wish I had done them in in-character prose (like a lot of the Guide to the Uz is done) because as they are now, it probably looks less of a mystery and more of a screw-up. I mean, youknow and I know that anyone with three seconds or more of Gloranthan knowledge knows the uz didn't fight *for* Chaos, they just occasionally fought with the surface races as well as fighting against Chaos.

So my plans for seeding these little 'facts' only to be countered by The Big Truth in the Guide to the Uz are something I'd handle waaaaaay differently now. Luckily, they're a teeny-tiny bit; just the occasional reference.

It was one of those things where you think "People who are just learning about Glorantha will love this bait & switch when the Big Reveal comes" and then remember too late that "Wait, people who know Glorantha already are going to think I'm a retard!"

Still - apart from this - I'm looking forward to Magic coming out. : )

Guide to the Uz has a section on the God Learners actually finding flawed Heroquests, which are dangerous and unstable, where they just risk it for the loot and emulate the darkness gods attacking the surface gods as if they were Chaos deities.

In short, it was established as one of those "If enough people believe this crap, it can make HeroQuesting go insane. I know, since I've lost apprentices myself."

I'll note - again - that these are tiny, throwaway references just once or twice in Magic of Glorantha. I wish I'd done them in in-character prose and detailed more of the heroquesting fun that they cause, but you live, you learn. I thought it'd be a cool discovery for the newbies.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

You've done some sterling work here Aaron, so I don't want to get all reactionary, but iIf there is reason behind this I'd be interested to know what it is. I am worried that this is a misinterpretation of the background and does not bode well for the new Troll Book.

No, trust me, it's not in the Uz Guide. There are in-character God Learners discussing the flawed heroquests, but that's all. The trolls are pissed off about this - at least, those few who know about it are. Since the God Learners were having so much trouble getting decent uz myths out of the trolls, the uz thought they were onto a winner. Now they find out that the Jrustelans can heroquest through perversions and lies of uz culture, and still get power.

They're insulted and they're mad.

I wanted some heroquests to be based on lies, basically. That would make them unstable and dangerous to enter, with a lot of people never returning - but the God Learners are so greedy, they don't care about the risks.

The trolls, whose gods attacked the light gods just like the Chaos gods did at first, seemed a neat way of conflicting it up a little.

Should've done it in-character, though. Chalk that up to experience.

 

[CharlieMonster]

Thanks Aaron, I guess you were waiting for that one to crop up!

Well you got our attention and to be honest I was surprised given the quality of the rest of the book, that such a fundamental "flaw" slipped through. Thanks for clearing it up, really itching for the Uz book now.
Safe to say I will be spending most of the this weekend writing stuff for a shiny new G2A campaign!

I dare say anybody skimming to book will have something to say about the Inhuman King illustration, luckily I read the text before going off half-cocked about that one and like the concept. :lol:

As I mentioned earlier, I liked your snippet on Gark the Calm & Seseine any idea if we will be seing them in CoG2?

 

[Rurik]

Quote from GtSA:

"God Learners ask us: 'Your Gods are sort of like gods and sort of like spirits. Please, please, please, tell us which it is.' We know they want to know this so they can steal more of our our magic. So we say: 'In the winter and fall, they are spirits. The rest of the time, they are gods'. And then the God Learners go and write this down and look all serious and we laugh and imagine them hanging on hooks in the meat-curing hut."

 

[RosenMcStern]

There is a useful term that you could have used instead of "Chaotic" to avoid confusion: Krjalki. It is a typical Malkioni word that is common in the third era, but there is nothing indicating the God Learners could not have used it in the second. I have always found it used in the "nonhuman thing that wants to kill and eat me" sense, so maybe it was the most appropriate word.

 

[Rurik]

Heh.

I set up my sig last night because I liked the quote. It has nothing to do with this thread - I hadn't even seen it. Just wanted to say that as my last post is a different GtSA Uz quote and my sig could also be taken as a comment on this thread - it is not. It is just that the little bit of GtSA Troll background has some great Uzdom.

Now I just need to justify a being a Yelmalion with an UZ sig. :?

 

[CharlieMonster]

There is a useful term that you could have used instead of "Chaotic" to avoid confusion: Krjalki.

But a DBC said, it's a deliberate misunderstanding, the Godlearners have failed to grasp the fundamental difference between Chaos and Darkness. He is sowing confusion deliberately.

Having said that Krjalki was in common usage during the Gbaji wars, so it is fair to assume usage in the second age.

 

[CharlieMonster]

Now I just need to justify a being a Yelmalion with an UZ sig.

Uz sez "Halelujah! He's seen the Darkness!" scratch head slightly an add,
*Now can we eat him?"

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Thanks Aaron, I guess you were waiting for that one to crop up!

It was only a teeny-tiny bit of the book, but it was the one thing I wished I'd written a bit differently to avoid confusion (and looking like a dumbass, but you live, you learn.)

Well you got our attention and to be honest I was surprised given the quality of the rest of the book, that such a fundamental "flaw" slipped through. Thanks for clearing it up, really itching for the Uz book now.
Safe to say I will be spending most of the this weekend writing stuff for a shiny new G2A campaign!

I'm thrilled as all hell you liked the book, CM. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't dead proud of it. I think it covers a lot of principal 2nd Age stuff that needed coverin'.

It was a joy to go through the .pdf a few weeks back and look at the art. I always like doing that with stuff I write, sure, but Magic was the first time I got to describe what art I wanted and where I wanted it.

I dare say anybody skimming to book will have something to say about the Inhuman King illustration, luckily I read the text before going off half-cocked about that one and like the concept. :lol:

Every single EWF character has something 'eerie' or 'wrong' about them. The Inhuman King is no exception. I tried to make it, in some cases, more of a sense of something slightly eerie or unusual about the character rather than be obvious in all of them. I'm getting a lot of play out of that character appendix in my own games, I have to say. I use the italic descriptions word-for-word and they're going down really well.

As I mentioned earlier, I liked your snippet on Gark the Calm & Seseine any idea if we will be seing them in CoG2?

I can't remember. I'd tell you, honestly, but my brand new £1100 laptop chose this morning to die, setting me back 3 days of work I might never recover and is now in the care of my computer-literate friend Ray who is fixing it over the weekend.

Sigh.

My CoG2 Word.docs (as written by the talented Voriof) are saved on there.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

But a DBC said, it's a deliberate misunderstanding, the Godlearners have failed to grasp the fundamental difference between Chaos and Darkness. He is sowing confusion deliberately.

Some God Learners. Not all, not most. Some found a crazy path to power through lies and they're taking it.

The driving reason behind all of this was - I might as well admit now for any future God Learner stuff I do - was that I wanted many, many little reasons to break the God Learners into factions before The End and increase the tensions for a magic-laden, world-shaking civil war. But it'd be a Shadow War - out if sight of most races who only glimpse into it - and it'd be bitterly fought among the ranks of the Jrustelans as the Third Age neared.

This was one way of making a type of 'flawed' heroquest interesting and weird, as well as laying the ground for more factionalising to come if I got the chance to work further on the topic.

Plus, the idea of heroquesting based on lies which offend other cultures struck me as viciously poignant and a very ambitious, conniving 'stereotypical' God Learner thing to do.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Heh.

I set up my sig last night because I liked the quote. It has nothing to do with this thread - I hadn't even seen it. Just wanted to say that as my last post is a different GtSA Uz quote and my sig could also be taken as a comment on this thread - it is not. It is just that the little bit of GtSA Troll background has some great Uzdom.

Now I just need to justify a being a Yelmalion with an UZ sig. :?

The way I see it, you can never have too many uz quotes. That section of G:tSA is my fave part of the book.

 

[Rurik]

Now I just need to justify a being a Yelmalion with an UZ sig.

Uz sez "Halelujah! He's seen the Darkness!" scratch head slightly an add,
*Now can we eat him?"

No.

 

[Rurik]

Heh.

I set up my sig last night because I liked the quote. It has nothing to do with this thread - I hadn't even seen it. Just wanted to say that as my last post is a different GtSA Uz quote and my sig could also be taken as a comment on this thread - it is not. It is just that the little bit of GtSA Troll background has some great Uzdom.

Now I just need to justify a being a Yelmalion with an UZ sig. :?

The way I see it, you can never have too many uz quotes. That section of G:tSA is my fave part of the book.

Well the first quote, about the Trolls lying to the God Learners, was the first thing that came to my mind when reading this thread. Some of the misconceptions/errors/lies might not all come from God Learner arrogance. Crafty races would intentionally decieve them too.

The Uz have shown very good sense over the ages, never buying into the Nysalor thing or the God Learners.

Though I must say that most God Learners should well know the history and origins of the Stygian Empire - it did conquer their homeland for a few hundred years. Some would, of course, demonize it though.

I agree with you on the Uz section of GtSA - great stuff.

And to those of you who already have MoG and CoG I just want to re-iterate I hate you. Did you all direct order from Mongoose? How come you get them so early?

 

[simonh]

In previous western material, I've seen the term Krjalki used for both chaotics and the elder races. It seems westerners generally have less contact and knowledge about chaos than some other areas, so yes this all makes a lot of sense.

Similarly in the east they consider many theist gods of other regions such as Orlanth to be 'antigods' and don't draw a distinction between chaotic and non-chaotic antigods.

 

[gamesmeister]

I can't remember. I'd tell you, honestly, but my brand new £1100 laptop chose this morning to die, setting me back 3 days of work I might never recover and is now in the care of my computer-literate friend Ray who is fixing it over the weekend.

Sigh.

DBC, I seem to remember from your Blog that this isn't the first time this has happened...didn't you lose a bunch of Nehwon stuff last time?

Dude, am I gonna have to drive up to Liverpool and stamp the word "BACKUP" on your forehead?

 

[Voriof]

I'll note - again - that these are tiny, throwaway references just once or twice in Magic of Glorantha.[/b] I wish I'd done them in in-character prose and detailed more of the heroquesting fun that they cause, but you live, you learn. I thought it'd be a cool discovery for the newbies.

That's how I'd have done them myself. However, there's some downright wrong things that the God Learners were heavily into. The Recycling Rune that the Zistorites SWORE existed and built their entire cult structure around... didn't. They imploded.

At least, that's how the Dread Book of <strike> Stafford </strike> Zzabur interprets it.

And yeah, if its not a human, a dwarf, a merman, or an elf, the Westnerners tend to think its a krajalki chaos-thing.

Voriof

 

[soltakss]

Personally, and speaking only for myself, I hate having errors/misunderstandings/ambiguities deliberately built in to histories/legends/myths/cosmologies.

I would much prefer a sidebar saying "The Godlearners mistakenly believe Xentha to be Chaotic because she conquered the Sky" or whatever rather than a statement that Xentha is Chaotic then another statement elsewhere that she isn't. That kind of thing is confusing for no other reason than trying to be clever.

I know that a lot of people really get off on this kind of thing and like the built-in vagueness or differences, so I am pretty much shouting in the wind, but maybe somebody might hear me.