Ancients in Armageddon - which is which?
- Thread starter animus
- Start date
Karhedron said:Yup, Thoughtforce is the one that shows up at the begginning of "Into the Fire" and Lorien offers to introduce them to Ivanova.
Putting it like that makes it sound like a First One dating agency.
Well, Ivanova is God... Hanging with the first ones may be part of that.
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Are you sure, the names are consistent throughout Armageddon?
Go to the original source material (in this case AOG made who made the models and most of the fluff for these...) The two models got switched. Now this may just be another case where Mongoose decided they did not like AOG's take on things and switched stuff. They have reversed the direction of a number of the models 'front' in their pictures, reversed the fact that the Sunhawk was the bigger and more powerful drazi ship rather than the warbird, etc.
ripple
ripple
The one that is leaping to mind right now is the Milani. The pointy bits are the front if I am remembering my b5wars schematics right. I seem to remember one or two others but its been over a year since I noticed it. Have to go back and check....after I get some sleep that is.
Ripple
Ripple
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Personally on the Sunhawk/Warbird thing I think that Mongoose and AoG are both wrong...
The AoG Sunhawk was not really bigger than much bigger than the Warbird (all of about 12 points of structure, not much in B5wars terms), but was supposedly a more modern ship.
From the show we see the Sunhawk more early on and the Warbird more later...
I think they are about the same size and that the Warbird is the more modern (the engine cowling, which is the main visual difference could suggest extra armour protecting the engines, a possible weak point of the earlier design...)
But hey why would anything I think matter...
Nick
The AoG Sunhawk was not really bigger than much bigger than the Warbird (all of about 12 points of structure, not much in B5wars terms), but was supposedly a more modern ship.
From the show we see the Sunhawk more early on and the Warbird more later...
I think they are about the same size and that the Warbird is the more modern (the engine cowling, which is the main visual difference could suggest extra armour protecting the engines, a possible weak point of the earlier design...)
But hey why would anything I think matter...
Nick
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
captainsmirk said:
"our thoughts form the universe, they always matter" G'Kar I believe
Locutus9956
Mongoose
well it wasnt so much size as firepower in B5Wars, the Sunhawk had a fair bit more of it.
captainsmirk
Mongoose
That it did.
Ripple described it as being bigger (and more powerful) I was just saying it really wasn't any bigger.
Of course Mongoosewise it's smaller...
From what I remember of the show, the majority of Drazi ships seen in the later episodes were Warbirds (if not all of them), even the big fleets in Season 5. In fact the only Sunhawk I can actually remember is the one from Deathwalker...
Nick
Ripple described it as being bigger (and more powerful) I was just saying it really wasn't any bigger.
Of course Mongoosewise it's smaller...
From what I remember of the show, the majority of Drazi ships seen in the later episodes were Warbirds (if not all of them), even the big fleets in Season 5. In fact the only Sunhawk I can actually remember is the one from Deathwalker...
Nick
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Yup pretty much all the Drazi ships later were Warbirds (though technically the one that Marcus launches from at the start of season 3 is a Strikehawk (since it carries a fighter).
Personally I dont actually mind mongoose doing this particular switch in this instance though. The Strikehawk/Warbird IS a much nicer miniature frankly
Personally I dont actually mind mongoose doing this particular switch in this instance though. The Strikehawk/Warbird IS a much nicer miniature frankly
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
So in answer to my own question, no they haven't made a mistake. They've just changed things from the previous game. the thread gave a different impression, or maybe it was just my interpretation of it.
On the change between warbird and Sunhawk, have to agree that the warbird/strikehawk figure is the better looking ship, and given predominance later in the series is obviously the superior design technically, so makes sense that it's the higher priority ship now.
On the change between warbird and Sunhawk, have to agree that the warbird/strikehawk figure is the better looking ship, and given predominance later in the series is obviously the superior design technically, so makes sense that it's the higher priority ship now.
Should always be careful with words like obviously.
Warbird might not be more modern or technically superior, might just have been cheaper to built and more plentiful. Sadly I don't have the series on disk to go take a look at this point.
Twelve point in B5wars terms might not be much bigger but it is bigger, and carried more weapons/better weapons so more powerful...how was I wrong here?
And yes they changed thing from the previous game. But they did get some things wrong from my perspective. The previous game got the stamp of canon and developed the majority of ships and naval histories for this series, just dismissing that is a bit over the line, especially when its not bringing things more in line with show canon/creator vision. Now if the darkhawk were actually a warbird variant...maybe I'd be happier they were going for show congruity. Just changing which ancient is which also seems a tad over the line. Feels like just saying that all those abbai hulls we have are actually gaim hulls, well not the Lakara...that's an EA ship...but the snow speeder never looked abbai anyway...
Anyway, my point was the source material is there to be used. Taking someone else's work, and fan's memories, and renaming them is a bit disrespectful. In effect completely changing the history and fluff of a treasured model is...well...it just isn't a nice thing to do to someone who is finacially supporting you.
Ripple
Warbird might not be more modern or technically superior, might just have been cheaper to built and more plentiful. Sadly I don't have the series on disk to go take a look at this point.
Twelve point in B5wars terms might not be much bigger but it is bigger, and carried more weapons/better weapons so more powerful...how was I wrong here?
And yes they changed thing from the previous game. But they did get some things wrong from my perspective. The previous game got the stamp of canon and developed the majority of ships and naval histories for this series, just dismissing that is a bit over the line, especially when its not bringing things more in line with show canon/creator vision. Now if the darkhawk were actually a warbird variant...maybe I'd be happier they were going for show congruity. Just changing which ancient is which also seems a tad over the line. Feels like just saying that all those abbai hulls we have are actually gaim hulls, well not the Lakara...that's an EA ship...but the snow speeder never looked abbai anyway...
Anyway, my point was the source material is there to be used. Taking someone else's work, and fan's memories, and renaming them is a bit disrespectful. In effect completely changing the history and fluff of a treasured model is...well...it just isn't a nice thing to do to someone who is finacially supporting you.
Ripple
Re: "switching" the Ancient Hulls
I'm sorry- it's not like AOG had been given 'holy script' and translated it for us lowly masses. It was an interpretation- an interpretation that Mongoose didn't like and decided to go in another direction. Better that Mongoose had the courage to say "Hey, we don't want to be trapped in this direction, we want to go in another direction".
C'mon- do y'all actually think that JMS actually gives a #*#^ about 95% of what goes into making a miniature game? I mean the crunchy bits- this weapon does 4AP instead of 3d6+2 damage, or whether the Centauri used beam weapons or not. No. He would (as much as he would care at ALL) be concerned only about whether or not the entire product had the FEEL of what he felt the show was about.
Darilian
I'm sorry- it's not like AOG had been given 'holy script' and translated it for us lowly masses. It was an interpretation- an interpretation that Mongoose didn't like and decided to go in another direction. Better that Mongoose had the courage to say "Hey, we don't want to be trapped in this direction, we want to go in another direction".
C'mon- do y'all actually think that JMS actually gives a #*#^ about 95% of what goes into making a miniature game? I mean the crunchy bits- this weapon does 4AP instead of 3d6+2 damage, or whether the Centauri used beam weapons or not. No. He would (as much as he would care at ALL) be concerned only about whether or not the entire product had the FEEL of what he felt the show was about.
Darilian
Actually if you would read the bloody post you would see that was the point...its not about the crunchy bits...its about continuity of the fluff that gets the tap of 'canon'. If a ship gets a name changing it is more of an issue than changing whether it has 2 ad or 3d6+3.
If Mongoose just decided that they didn't want Sheridan to be called Sheridan but Holly we would all understand that folks would not be thrilled. A similar thing happens when someone pulls out an Omega and says hey Mongoose says this is a nova now...cool, they have courage. It's just about respect for the series...and the materials that came after to support it, build on it.
Mongoose is changing the Centauri to be more like the series, that I applaud, that is improving the relation to the base material. Moving away from the base material on a whim seems silly. Either way it doesn't matter, Star Wars did just fine with mitachlorians replacing a mystical religion, I'm sure Mongoose will do just fine changing what they want. Or then again maybe they won't...look at the change to the Shadow Hunter's home fleet list.
As to the 'feel' comment...Star Trek enterprise very much had the 'feel' of the star trek franchise, but stomped on the toes of what had come before often enough to be an issue. Feel doesn't give you a base, its building on what came before and being true to your established universe.
Ripple
If Mongoose just decided that they didn't want Sheridan to be called Sheridan but Holly we would all understand that folks would not be thrilled. A similar thing happens when someone pulls out an Omega and says hey Mongoose says this is a nova now...cool, they have courage. It's just about respect for the series...and the materials that came after to support it, build on it.
Mongoose is changing the Centauri to be more like the series, that I applaud, that is improving the relation to the base material. Moving away from the base material on a whim seems silly. Either way it doesn't matter, Star Wars did just fine with mitachlorians replacing a mystical religion, I'm sure Mongoose will do just fine changing what they want. Or then again maybe they won't...look at the change to the Shadow Hunter's home fleet list.
As to the 'feel' comment...Star Trek enterprise very much had the 'feel' of the star trek franchise, but stomped on the toes of what had come before often enough to be an issue. Feel doesn't give you a base, its building on what came before and being true to your established universe.
Ripple
Locutus9956
Mongoose
well with regard to enterprise I agree it just wasnt 'Star Trek' in terms of plot continuity etc (except for the final series but tbh that was too little too late to save the show 
).
As for the ships, I also tend to agree. Changing the effectiveness slightly is one thing but changing the NAMES is a different matter especially for those ships as iconic as the first ones.
).As for the ships, I also tend to agree. Changing the effectiveness slightly is one thing but changing the NAMES is a different matter especially for those ships as iconic as the first ones.
I did read the post.
I don't ever recall in the show any of the First Ones (other than Lorien, Kosh, and the Shadows) being given names.
That was an AOG invention.
Mongoose decided to be different.
Obviously, you liked the AOG stuff. Fair enough. But since Mongoose owns the property, they are free to develop the game as they see fit WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS set by the owners of B5- namely Warner Bros., JMS et al. Since this particular issue is on the level of "Not Terribly Important", they are free to change it as they see fit.
Personally, I HATE IT when companies/authors/game designers feel they have to be constrained by previously written stuff. Not the show/movie- they should always view that as their source of inspiration. But when a TERRIBLE work of dreck comes out, completely moves things in an odd direction, and you want to just erase it, invariably someone yells out, "But its CANON...!", as if somehow that promotes a terrible book into the level of Holy Writ. Its all fiction, guys and girls- and to be honest, promotional fiction at that. We're not talking about Oliver Twist or Ulysses here. So, if someone wants to change it to make a better product, here's to them. Anyway, they have to answer to Warner Bros. if they did want to want to change Sheridan's name to Holly! (Just to prove I'm reading your "bloody" post :-D)
Darilian
(the Cranky this evening!)
I don't ever recall in the show any of the First Ones (other than Lorien, Kosh, and the Shadows) being given names.
That was an AOG invention.
Mongoose decided to be different.
Obviously, you liked the AOG stuff. Fair enough. But since Mongoose owns the property, they are free to develop the game as they see fit WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS set by the owners of B5- namely Warner Bros., JMS et al. Since this particular issue is on the level of "Not Terribly Important", they are free to change it as they see fit.
Personally, I HATE IT when companies/authors/game designers feel they have to be constrained by previously written stuff. Not the show/movie- they should always view that as their source of inspiration. But when a TERRIBLE work of dreck comes out, completely moves things in an odd direction, and you want to just erase it, invariably someone yells out, "But its CANON...!", as if somehow that promotes a terrible book into the level of Holy Writ. Its all fiction, guys and girls- and to be honest, promotional fiction at that. We're not talking about Oliver Twist or Ulysses here. So, if someone wants to change it to make a better product, here's to them. Anyway, they have to answer to Warner Bros. if they did want to want to change Sheridan's name to Holly! (Just to prove I'm reading your "bloody" post :-D)
Darilian
(the Cranky this evening!)
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Yes but it just seems a little pointless to change the name for no good reason. And the main, guiding point is that given their track record it seems far more likely that mongoose would have, rather than just randomly deciding to change the names around would, have simply put the wrong picture on the wrong page and then gone 'oh we meant to do that'
