It just occurred to me that there is no mention - as far as I can see - of Allied Spirits for Rune levels in Cults of Glorantha. Is this intentional? If so, it's a BIG change - if I'm right, allied spirits still exist in Heroquest. Are Allied Spirits now a thing of the past for Gloranthan Runequest or is there something in the works explaining how they work?
Allied Spirits?
- Thread starter Ultor
- Start date
Loz
Mongoose
Some cults do offer allied spirits at certain levels. However, part of the complication comes from the nature of the cults themselves. Most theist cults have limited spirit plane contact (Kolat and the barbarian/nomad cults are the exception) and its always been difficult to reconcile this easily within a theist/spirit/sorcery framework. Gloranthan lore has always stressed the very separate nature of the spirit and god planes, and this has made it tough to reconcile how one gains an allied spirit in one, fell swoop upon reaching Rune level.
The easiest way around this to have a Storm Tribe worshipping clan, for instance, having a shaman (a Kolat worshipper) who then goes and finds the allied spirit for its eligible members. There's no reason why this cannot happen within Orlanthi clans although, for some theist pantheons with stricter relationships (Solar, for example), it will be somewhat tougher.
Also bear in mind that RQII Divine Magic is a great deal more powerful than in previous incarnations. Adding-in an allied spirit will greatly enhance the powers of someone at Rune level, and that may not be something that appeals to your game. Those cults that do have allied spirits as part of their description, like Storm Bull, tend to have the spirit at a relatively low intensity.
The easiest way around this to have a Storm Tribe worshipping clan, for instance, having a shaman (a Kolat worshipper) who then goes and finds the allied spirit for its eligible members. There's no reason why this cannot happen within Orlanthi clans although, for some theist pantheons with stricter relationships (Solar, for example), it will be somewhat tougher.
Also bear in mind that RQII Divine Magic is a great deal more powerful than in previous incarnations. Adding-in an allied spirit will greatly enhance the powers of someone at Rune level, and that may not be something that appeals to your game. Those cults that do have allied spirits as part of their description, like Storm Bull, tend to have the spirit at a relatively low intensity.
I think that this reasoning takes the phrase "Allied spirit" in a rather too technical sense. The term refers to a spirit (non-material entity), but not necessarily to a Spirit (denizen of the animist Otherworld). This distinction did not specifically exist in some earlier versions of RQ, but it was always clear that this was a being associated with your cult: eg the soul of a former worshipper or a servant entity of the deity/saint.
You might want to change the wording so that a Theist has a Familiar Daemon and a sorcerer has a Guardian Angel (or Associated Essence, or Designated Non-Material Output Quality Enhancing Unit depending on the tradition), but junking them entirely because RQ I II and III hadn't fully developed the otherworlds yet and called them all spirits seems harsh.
You might want to change the wording so that a Theist has a Familiar Daemon and a sorcerer has a Guardian Angel (or Associated Essence, or Designated Non-Material Output Quality Enhancing Unit depending on the tradition), but junking them entirely because RQ I II and III hadn't fully developed the otherworlds yet and called them all spirits seems harsh.
Loz said:
Thanks for explaining the thinking, Loz. I appreciate the problems, but I also think Kintire's comments have some merit - I'd always thought of Allied Spirits as favored former worshipers or as animals awakened by the deity to serve them.
It also has to be said that Allied Spirits have always significantly increased the power of a rune level. Not only do they get a "power battery" and increased capacity for remembering spells (less of an issue in MRQ2) but they get an ally that casts spells while they're doing other things. Given that Rune Lords especially are supposed to be the champions of the cult, I don't see that as a particularly big issue. In some ways, it's what should happen.
Having said that, I think I'll make it clear to my players that Allied Spirits can only be acquired as a result of a Heroquest. Most cults should have a myth about acquiring a friend or an animal companion or a magic sword that can form the basis of the quest. If your god's a loner, though, you might be out of luck (although even Humakt probably has a myth about an associated raven).
Loz
Mongoose
But, this isn't the case... RQ has always had a well defined difference between the otherworlds - certainly the spirit and mundane world.
What I'm really getting at is the mechanics of spirits. Spirits under old RQ were very different beings to this incarnation. To quote from Cults of Prax:
And old RQ spirits were little more than spell batteries. In RQII they're not; they're much more powerful and diverse in nature. Plus, the way cults work places the emphasis on a personal relationship with a deity for the source of your magic; old RQ implies an inverse relationship: Rune Lords get a spirit and then the spirit sacrifices additional POW for more divine magic. Mechanistically that places, under RQII, immense power at the hands of Rune level characters, and divine magic is already ramped-up to reflect the god/worshipper relationship.
I haven't 'junked' allied spirits by any stretch; as I said, some cults have access to them as part of their nature and structure. But mechanically, and to model the differentiation (not any lack of development; that's a different issue) that's always been part of Glorantha, it requires different handling.
YGWV. By all means give your Rune Lords allied spirits (or whatever you want to name them) if you wish. The tools are all there for you to do so.
PhilHibbs said:
You may have hit the nail on the head - in some ways Wyters have replaced Allied Spirits. Perhaps a new Rune Lord needs to awaken a new Wyter - or Guardian in Heroquest 1 terminology - for his/her temple/sacred band/oppressed people or whatever it is he/she is the champion of. That Rune Lord would have a special relationship with the Wyter but would be unable to use it for anything other than tasks related to being the Champion. Might that work?
Loz
Mongoose
I agree that this is a neat, story-driven solution. Your wyter (if you're Orlanthi) is a spirit allied to the clan. Going on a wyter-associated HQ to gain an allied spirit is a very nice way of gaining access. Also, RQII does have good rules for ancestor spirits, so its a cool way of gaining the alliance of Great Grandfather Bloodaxe...
It has not. In RQ III, for example, The usual, normal magic that Theists used was "spirit" magic. Theist cults offered a restricted list of Spirit magic spells which it taught to its worshippers. They used divine magic as the next step up, wheres Shaman used bound spirits, but at the lower level both animists and Theists were using exactly the same spells. Similarly, both theists and animists gain allied "Spirits".
Since then, the lines between the styles of magic have been drawn more clearly, and it is no longer (usually) appropriate for Theists to use "Spirit" magic or have allied "Spirits". In the case of the magic, you have solved this very effectively by no longer calling the magic "Spirit" magic, and calling it "Common" magic instead. My question is, why can't you do exactly the same for allied "Spirits"? Its not as if the other Otherworlds don't have minor entities analgous to the Animist's Spirits. Why not just change the name of the Theist's allied spirit to Allied Daemon in exactly the same way you changed Spirit Magic to Common Magic?
Also, old RQ Spirits were also powerful and diverse in nature. Some were literally Power batteries, but we certainly played allied spirits as much more than that. Even under the old system an Allied Spirit wasn't just the sum of its ability to learn new magic anymore than the PC was nothing more than a few skills and damage ouput.
PhilHibbs said:
In Heroquest 1, almost any old gang qualified as a Hero Band that could have a spirit "Guardian," so I think the answer is yes. Having said that, there's no sign of them yet in the couple of volumes published for Heroquest 2. So the concept could yet have been Gregged.
duncan_disorderly
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
The Lunar Regiment banner is home to the Esprit de Corps
I think, as with much of HQ1, the problem was one of escalation. - Every "organisation" could have a "wyter" or "community spirit", but before you knew it, there were too many potential groups
So a typical Orlanthi PC would be the member of a Clan (Clan Wyter) which was itself part of a Tribe (Tribal Wyter). He lived on his Bloodlines Stead (Stead Wyter) and was part of the Fyrd (Fyrd Wyter) or Warband (Warband Wyter). He worships his god at a temple (Temple wyter) and co-operates with other people who follow his occupation (eg in a trade association, guild, or brotherhood) (Trade wyter). He formed or joined a Heroband (Heroband Wyter) with the other PC's, and that Heroband then joined the rebellion as part of (eg) Kallyr's Army (Army Wyter).
Obviously not all of these spirits may be relevant at the same time - but if he is fighting Lunar-backed forces on his home ground...
HQ2 gets around this problem both by de-emphasising the wyter, and also because rather than applying any and all available augments, you get to apply only one.
For MRQ, Maybe requiring a "Pact" with the Wyter would limit the (ab)use - (and would tie in with older versions, where you would probably sacrifice a point of POW (albeit easier to recover) to join the Wyter "cult")
Just to throw this in the mix I wrote this for Cult Allied Spirits based upon the rules for a fetch. I was written when RQII first came out with no reference to any Cults or the like. It may be of some interest:
Cult Allied Spirit
Dice Average
STR - -
CON - -
DEX - -
SIZ - -
INT 2D6+6 13
POW 2D6+6 13
CHA 2D6+6 13
Combat Actions: use average of INT and POW instead
Magic Points: calculated as normal, also used as Hit Points in spirit combat
Movement: as creature if awakened, none if bound in to an object, 20m flying if discorporate
Spirit damage: see Core Rules, page 139 but calculate using Spectral Combat skill
Strike Rank: average of INT and CHA
Traits: Life sense, Magic Sense, Possession – may also posses its host animals traits.
Common Skills: Common Magic, Influence, Insight, Lore (Specific Theology), Lore (Spirit World), Pact (Specific Cult or Deity), Perception, Persistence
Advanced Skills: Discorporate (INT+POW), Spectral Combat (POW+CHA)
An allied spirit is a cult spirit, which is related in form or nature to the specific cult or theology of it's master, typically a Rune Lord, Rune Priest or exceptional Acolyte in good standing. The allied spirit aids it's master, protecting and assisting him in his cult duties and missions. It is in every way his spiritual companion.
Allied spirits are specially awakened animals or spirits sent by the deity to inhabit objects sacred to the cult. An awakened animal gains a non-fixed INT of either 2D6+6 or its former INT, whichever is greater. CHA is either the creatures former CHA or is rolled as 2D6+6, whichever is greater. Its POW remains unchanged. A spirit sent to inhabit a sacred object normally has an INT, POW and CHA of 2D6+6 each.
The benefits of an allied spirit are:
The allied spirit can see or sense spirits, souls and magical auras.
The Rune Lord can transfer the Magic Points of the allied spirit to replenish his own.
The allied spirit can substitute itself instead of the Rune Lord in spirit combat (if in the same location).
The allied spirit and Rune Lord are in permanent mental contact and are are aware of each other's senses.
The allied spirit is classed as an acolyte of the his masters cult and, therefore, may learn cult Divine Spells or cult approved Common Magic.
The Rune Lord may invoke any cult power or ability his allied spirit knows and likewise the allied spirit may cast any Common Magic or cult Divine Magic the Rune Lord knows.
The bond between Rune Lord and allied spirit is not vulnerable to magical dismissal.
The detriments of an allied spirit are:
The allied spirit may influence the personality of the Rune Lord dependant on its cult nature, it may even belong to a different faction within the cult.
The allied spirit may draw on the Magic Points of the Rune Lord in times of dire need.
The allied spirit will abandon the Rune Lord if he betrays the teachings of his cult.
The allied spirit becomes bound to its host animal or object and may no longer discorporate at will, although it may well possess the Discorporate skill.
An allied spirit starts with 200 free skill points to be assigned to its skills. Allied spirits may grow in experience just as the Rune Lord does. If desired a Rune Lord can transfer any or all of his skill improvement rolls to his allied spirit instead.
To be fair I have not tested this in a game, they may prove to be too powerful I suspect, but perhaps this could be modified with some of the ideas above such as a separate Pact skill or maybe being forced to take on a compulsion of some sort.
Cult Allied Spirit
Dice Average
STR - -
CON - -
DEX - -
SIZ - -
INT 2D6+6 13
POW 2D6+6 13
CHA 2D6+6 13
Combat Actions: use average of INT and POW instead
Magic Points: calculated as normal, also used as Hit Points in spirit combat
Movement: as creature if awakened, none if bound in to an object, 20m flying if discorporate
Spirit damage: see Core Rules, page 139 but calculate using Spectral Combat skill
Strike Rank: average of INT and CHA
Traits: Life sense, Magic Sense, Possession – may also posses its host animals traits.
Common Skills: Common Magic, Influence, Insight, Lore (Specific Theology), Lore (Spirit World), Pact (Specific Cult or Deity), Perception, Persistence
Advanced Skills: Discorporate (INT+POW), Spectral Combat (POW+CHA)
An allied spirit is a cult spirit, which is related in form or nature to the specific cult or theology of it's master, typically a Rune Lord, Rune Priest or exceptional Acolyte in good standing. The allied spirit aids it's master, protecting and assisting him in his cult duties and missions. It is in every way his spiritual companion.
Allied spirits are specially awakened animals or spirits sent by the deity to inhabit objects sacred to the cult. An awakened animal gains a non-fixed INT of either 2D6+6 or its former INT, whichever is greater. CHA is either the creatures former CHA or is rolled as 2D6+6, whichever is greater. Its POW remains unchanged. A spirit sent to inhabit a sacred object normally has an INT, POW and CHA of 2D6+6 each.
The benefits of an allied spirit are:
The allied spirit can see or sense spirits, souls and magical auras.
The Rune Lord can transfer the Magic Points of the allied spirit to replenish his own.
The allied spirit can substitute itself instead of the Rune Lord in spirit combat (if in the same location).
The allied spirit and Rune Lord are in permanent mental contact and are are aware of each other's senses.
The allied spirit is classed as an acolyte of the his masters cult and, therefore, may learn cult Divine Spells or cult approved Common Magic.
The Rune Lord may invoke any cult power or ability his allied spirit knows and likewise the allied spirit may cast any Common Magic or cult Divine Magic the Rune Lord knows.
The bond between Rune Lord and allied spirit is not vulnerable to magical dismissal.
The detriments of an allied spirit are:
The allied spirit may influence the personality of the Rune Lord dependant on its cult nature, it may even belong to a different faction within the cult.
The allied spirit may draw on the Magic Points of the Rune Lord in times of dire need.
The allied spirit will abandon the Rune Lord if he betrays the teachings of his cult.
The allied spirit becomes bound to its host animal or object and may no longer discorporate at will, although it may well possess the Discorporate skill.
An allied spirit starts with 200 free skill points to be assigned to its skills. Allied spirits may grow in experience just as the Rune Lord does. If desired a Rune Lord can transfer any or all of his skill improvement rolls to his allied spirit instead.
To be fair I have not tested this in a game, they may prove to be too powerful I suspect, but perhaps this could be modified with some of the ideas above such as a separate Pact skill or maybe being forced to take on a compulsion of some sort.
The idea above is pretty generic and would need tweaking for each cult. It was written largely with 'cult object' based spirits in mind really.
I reckon discorporation would be pretty rare for most allied spirits, in fact I can't really think of any cults this would apply to off the cuff. All the old RQIII allied spirits were mostly stuck in an object or an awakened creature.
UPDATE - just spotted I'd thought of that under the 'disadvantages' bit! I really should read my own stuff... lol
One of the things that can be fun to play is a character with an allied spirit who's got some very different views on things. I once had a Humakti with an allied spirit who REALLY hated undead, it would cast spells and try everything it could to destroy them without even consulting the Humakti - got him in trouble more than a few times!!
I reckon discorporation would be pretty rare for most allied spirits, in fact I can't really think of any cults this would apply to off the cuff. All the old RQIII allied spirits were mostly stuck in an object or an awakened creature.
UPDATE - just spotted I'd thought of that under the 'disadvantages' bit! I really should read my own stuff... lol
One of the things that can be fun to play is a character with an allied spirit who's got some very different views on things. I once had a Humakti with an allied spirit who REALLY hated undead, it would cast spells and try everything it could to destroy them without even consulting the Humakti - got him in trouble more than a few times!!
