Advantages and Disadvantages (flaws, faults, etc)

[Utgardloki]

We've mentioned adding advantages and disadvantages/flaws/faults to the runequest game. But I really don't have anybody to discuss what is a fair hero point cost/gain for a given advantage/disadvantage. I was hoping for a thread where we could discuss such things.

My campaign rules allows the following means to buy advantages:

* During character generation, players roll an "Advantages" "Pseudo-Characteristic" using 4d6 drop the lowest. This is the number of points they have to buy advantages at character creation. The Pseudo-Characteristics can be swapped with the characteristics, except for Size and Age, to build the type of character desired.

* Hero points can be spent on advantages, as long as there is some explanation for this (the character gets special training, etc).

* Disadvantages may be taken to earn hero points, which may be used to buy advantages. Any disadvantages also need to be explained.

A few advantages and disadvantages I've listed so far. I'd appreciate any feedback. I've left off the ones that have been discussed in other threads.

CPR Training (2 point advantage) You are able to administer CPR with a successful First Aid skill roll.

Expanded Intellect (varies) Advanced concepts come easy to you. This advantage can only be taken at character creation and can not be improved after the character is brought into play.
Each advantage point spent buys one level of Expanded Intellect. When making an improvement roll to raise a skill, you can add your Expanded Intellect to your die roll, making it more likely that you will get to roll for an increase.

Extraordinary Attractiveness (3 point advantage) You are extraordinarily attractive, gaining a +20% bonus to certain skill rolls. This advantage may be taken multiple times, and the bonus stacks.

Photographic Memory (5 point advantage) Your memory skills are practically unique in this world, since true photographic memory is believed to be impossible. If you concentrate on a scene, you will be able to remember every detail at any time in the future. Even if you haven’t concentrated on the scene, you can make a Memory skill roll and if you succeed, then you have enough details to reconstruct the scene in complete detail, without having to make a Memory skill roll for each detail.

Rapid Calculator (5 point advantage) You can calculate mathematic problems very rapidly and accurately. A calculation that would take other people minutes and require the use of pencil and paper, you can do in your head in seconds.

Skill Talent (5 point advantage) You have a talent for picking up a certain skill. When you make an Improvement Roll, you can roll d10 to determine how many skill points you gain when you fail the skill roll. If you spent a Hero Point for the roll, you gain 1D3 points if you succeed the skill roll.

Virtuous (3 point advantage) You have a strong code of honor that sustains you in times of weakness. You are assumed to always follow your code of honor. If you specify otherwise, you lose the benefits of this advantage but don’t get your points back.
You get a 30% bonus to any Persistence or other die rolls to avoid being forced to violate your code of honor.

 

[Lorgryt]

The costs seem too small and the starting points seem too high. An average roll would allow a starting character to have about half of the ones you have listed.

One idea is a 10:1 skill cost, 10 skill points and character creation is equal to 1 advantage point. Special abilities are balanced by lower starting skills.

I would think something like Skill Talent would be worth 20 Hero Points as it allows you to rise twice as fast as a normal person.

 

[Utgardloki]

I think I should probably up the costs then.

If I think in terms of how many sessions it should take to earn an advantage, then I can see that most of these should be more expensive. Especially Skill Talent.

 

[algauble]

...
* During character generation, players roll an "Advantages" "Pseudo-Characteristic" using 4d6 drop the lowest. This is the number of points they have to buy advantages at character creation. The Pseudo-Characteristics can be swapped with the characteristics, except for Size and Age, to build the type of character desired.
...

I like the Pseudo-Characteristic idea... although, when you think of it, CoC's EDU is pretty much the same thing - a pseudo characteristic that determines skill points... but I like it there, too. In fact, I'm tempted to use it in MRQ, but rename it EXP. I've been also thinking of using something similar to determine starting magic... maybe each rune you start with cost a certain number of HP.
I've seen some RQ variant rules online that suggest porting in the GURPS ads/disads pretty much intact, including keeping the GURPS point costs (using the same pool of points used to buy skills). But I guess if you're doing that, why not just play GURPS? However, GURPS point costs might go well enough with a 4d6 drop lowest pool of ad/disad points. Too bad it's not open content - could have saved a lot of work.

-al
________
acronym glossary:
CoC - Chaosium's excellent Call of Cthulhu
EDU - Education, a stat in CoC
MRQ - MonQuest
EXP - Experience, Background Experience
HP - Hero Points, here, not Hit Points
GURPS - Steve Jackson's Generic Universal RolePlaying System

 

[Utgardloki]

I've introduced a number of pseudo-characteristics into my concept: Wealth, Training, Luck, Advantages, and Hero Points. Since I'm preparing a modern game, I decided to go with an abstract Wealth score rather than calculate each PC's net worth.

I don't think that the GURPS advantages port over exactly into MRQ (or RQ-U). For one thing, a lot of GURPS advantages are better modelled as RQ skills. For another, I don't think the point values are appropriate in many cases, due to differing GURPS and Runequest mechanics.

That being said, I did use the GURPS rulebook as a starting point.

 

[algauble]

I've introduced a number of pseudo-characteristics into my concept: Wealth, Training, Luck, Advantages, and Hero Points. Since I'm preparing a modern game, I decided to go with an abstract Wealth score rather than calculate each PC's net worth.

I don't think that the GURPS advantages port over exactly into MRQ (or RQ-U). For one thing, a lot of GURPS advantages are better modelled as RQ skills. For another, I don't think the point values are appropriate in many cases, due to differing GURPS and Runequest mechanics.

That being said, I did use the GURPS rulebook as a starting point.

Have you discussed the other pseudo characteristics on another thread? I'd be interested in hearing more about them.
As for the Gurps port, I tend to agree with you - if you are going to use ads and disads in a rq-based game, it's probably best to customize for you setting and goals. I just get bleary eyed reading yet another long list of ads and disads. They tend to more or less cover the same ground I've seen covered before.
Don't get me wrong, though. For example, I think it's interesting that you choose to not use codes of behavior as disads. Probably the most interesting parts of a disads list is seeing what _this_(whether reading your list or some other game's) version does different, not how it does x y and z more or less identically to gurps, unisystem and whoever else.
I'm currently fond of open-ended, player defined lists. An example of how I like these to be handled, Hero's Physical Limitation and similar disads, where you have a framework to determine how many points the disad is worth based on a simple formula or chart, but you define the specifics (or use a laundry list of specifics that someone else already put together using the framework).
I'm also currently fond of disads that give points in-play rather than at character creation. Kind of like your Virtue example, I suppose.*

*was it on another thread where you talked about giving out a hero point for good roleplaying?

 

[Utgardloki]

I haven't explained my Pseudo-Characteristics yet. If you are interested, I can start a new thread about how I intend to use these.

As for reading lists of Advantages/Disadvantages, I usually just skim them and see if anything catches my eye. I don't really need to know the cost of the Not The Face advantage unless it looks like something I might want to take. I have the same philosophy towards skills: most games have about the same skills, so I just skim the list, looking for things that look unusual.

And it was on another thread where I talked about giving out hero points for good role-playing, whether or not there was a personality quirk listed on the character sheet or not.

I just created a couple of Martial Arts advantages. The theory is that these advantages (costing about 3 points each) are needed to use Martial Arts skills to attack and parry weapon wielders without risking injury due to successful parry attempts. The alternative would be to decide how many skill points a person needs to do this.

It's similar to my CPR Training advantage listed above, which is required to perform CPR. I also made a CPR skill, which is knowledge of CPR and is a specialization of the First Aid skill. But CPR Training is still needed to represent the investment in practice to be able to use this skill in an emergency. (Otherwise, a critical success is needed because you only know the theory.)

 

[Lorgryt]

Please.

 

[Exubae]

CPR Training (2 point advantage) You are able to administer CPR with a successful First Aid skill roll.

Isn't this what First aid is for any way?

Expanded Intellect

Is this just taking INT higher, or above species max which should be handled as a Legendary ability.

Virtuous

Shouldn't this just be roll played, the same would go for 'sleazy'

Photographic Memory, Rapid Calculator could be handled by specialised skills or Legendary ability.

Skill Talent have just seems away of getting round the experience system.

Extraordinary Attractiveness or even Attractivness and their inverse have some scope. Still Extraordinary Attractiveness should be handled by a Legendary ability.

You just seem to adding another layer of complecation and allowing another route to max/min'ing.

Paul

 

[Utgardloki]

Quote:
CPR Training (2 point advantage) You are able to administer CPR with a successful First Aid skill roll.

Isn't this what First aid is for any way?

CPR Training teaches you special techniques that may not be available in archaic campaigns. More technologically advanced campaigns may even have CPR techniques not taught in the 20th Century. A First Aid roll is still necessary to successfully use these techniques.

An example would be to try to revive somebody who's stopped breathing due to drowning or having a heart attack. (Perhaps reviving a heart attack victim should require two rolls: one to restart the heart and one to restart breathing.) An archaic barbarian may know how to pull an arrow out of someone's shoulder, but wouldn't know how to treat someone who's just been electrocuted and has stopped breathing.

Quote:
Expanded Intellect

Is this just taking INT higher, or above species max which should be handled as a Legendary ability.

Expanded Intellect is neither having a higher INT nor having a Legendary ability. It is the ability to understand advanced concepts, like Albert Einstein. Aliens (or non-human fantasy creatures) may have Expanded Intellect which allows them to easily build up skills above 100% even if they don't have INT skills way above human beings; this is one potential way to model Vulcan-like aliens.

I also see Expanded Intellect as something that you are born with, so it can't be a Legendary Ability. The idea is that you can learn advanced skills (i.e. raise your skill rank above 100%) more easily than most people. But, like Einstein, you still have to put in the effort to study these concepts, otherwise you'll still flunk your basic Math exams.

By rights, Expanded Intellect should be specified for skills, but I didn't see an easy enough way to specify this, so I decided to just have it apply to all skills.

Quote:
Virtuous

Shouldn't this just be roll played, the same would go for 'sleazy'

Virtuous does need to be role-played, or else you lose the benefit of the advantage. It is intended, however, to give virtuous characters an edge when someone tries to force them to break their code of honor, such as by using a spell. It could be modelled by a skill, which would be rolled to resist such effects.

The idea for this advantage came when I was imagining a possible scene where the PC is stopped for speeding. A virtuous character probably would not be speeding, but almost anybody else would be :roll: So my idea was that a driver with the Virtuous advantage wouldn't get this encounter.

But maybe modelling this as a skill is the way to go. You can roll your Virtue whenever you're forced to violate your code of honor (such as through magic, psionic domination, etc). Success means you resist. Critical success means you throw off the spell.

Photographic Memory, Rapid Calculator could be handled by specialised skills or Legendary ability.

The only difference between an advantage and a Legendary Ability is that advantages don't have prerequisites, and many of them are intended to be present from character creation. A character learns the Flying Martial Arts Kick. A character always has Photographic Memory.

Also, in my opinion, the term "legendary ability" should be used for those that have difficult prerequisites, such as Rune Priest. (Or Flying Martial Arts Kick, which doesn't exist yet.) An ability with easier prerequisites should be an "Expert Ability", and there should be some of these too to represent expertise that does not rise to the level of "legendary".

Skill Talent have just seems away of getting round the experience system.

I might want to tone down Skill Talent a little, depending on other changes I make to the system. The concept is that there are some skills a person learns faster than others. So an Einstein would have Expanded Intellect which he could use to learn macrame if he wanted, and Skill Talent (Science Lore) which he used to transform the scientific world.

(Motivation also plays a factor. Skill Talent and Expanded Intellect won't help you if you don't try to improve your ability.)

Extraordinary Attractiveness or even Attractivness and their inverse have some scope. Still Extraordinary Attractiveness should be handled by a Legendary ability.

It needs to be possible to start out with Extraordinary Attractiveness. To gain EA as a LA, a character would need extraordinary magic or high tech surgery. Charisma can be improved from the minimum of 3 to the maximum human limit of 21 with enough effort, but Extraordinary Attractiveness normally would not be acquired later. (Especially since the gorgeous inguene is such a stock in just about every genre.)

You just seem to adding another layer of complecation and allowing another route to max/min'ing.

Paul

I have nothing against min/max'ing, as long as everything is fair and balanced. These advantages are intended to be used to make extraordinary characters. Otherwise, I'd be playing Call of Cthulhu. 8)

 

[Arkat]

The legendary abilities in the RQ book itself would seem to lend itself better to making true legendary characters. Adding traits & flaws is unnecessary and just tries to mold the game into a White WolF game and adds munchkinism into a game otherwise free of it.

 

[Exubae]

Adding traits & flaws is unnecessary and just tries to mold the game into a White WolF game and adds munchkinism into a game otherwise free of it.

Cheers Arkat, you sumed up my the point nicely.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Adding traits & flaws is unnecessary and just tries to mold the game into a White WolF game and adds munchkinism into a game otherwise free of it.

Cheers Arkat, you sumed up my the point nicely.

Absolutely agreed.

Most of these could be subsumed by either (a) higher characteristic scores, or (b) specialist use of a skill (e.g. by belonging to a healing cult). Cult gifts and geases also cover a lot of stuff like this, and fit in the framework of the rules without any abstraction being required.

For some things (such as photographic memory) I am so against the idea of a character suddenly being able to "gain" such an ability halfway through their life. Of course, that's just my opinion, other people may well differ, and if that's what you want then go for it.

 

[Exubae]

If the players really set on having the Total recall or what ever, give him a a specialised skill; i.e. 'Memory' then let him plough some his starting skill%'s into it.
If he makes his skill roll he remembers, otherwise his vast recall capacity was distracted at the time of viewing... what ever he was trying to remember in the first place (This is starting to sound like the late great Douglas Adams)

Paul

 

[Lorgryt]

I tent to agree with you in most way Arkat. However, as I have said in another thread, there are worlds that they work in even in MRQ. I am doing a Deadlands conversion, and rather that reinventing the wheel I am going to re-grease it (modify the extant rules to work with MRQ).

Also, there are some who enjoy munchken gaming... or D20 wouldn’t be so popular! :lol:

Before this thread begins to be RQ-Nazis vs. Munchkens lets remember that this thread is for those WANTING to talk about and further the idea of Ads/Disads (in their varied titles), not for a request to have Mongoose add them to the core rules. If you are apposed to the idea, please stay polite or quite. We are just trying to work out the idea for ourselves, not impose it on you.

Thanks.

 

[Exubae]

Apologies for any offence, my RQ Storm Trooper hat slipped over my perspective for a moment;

The reason why I piped up in the first place was not a reaction against the concept (though I'm not keen), its primarily against the examples;

CPR vs First aid
If your playing RQ in a modern era, first aid would not teach you the basics of extracting arrows or quaterising wounds with a flaming brand;
You are going to be taught basic CPR and applications of pressure on a wound to stop bleeding.

So from this what I'm trying to say era and culture are going to influence what each skill represents.

The expanded Intelligence for example, I would still argue this is an increase in the base INT score or simply a specialised skill/lore which deals with the specific details.

So to sum up alot of apparent 'Merits' are just going to be shifts in cultural/time period bias.

I think you've under stated the 'Virtuous merit' is more like a fanatical belief, or fundemental belief... When something causes you to reject that belief then you suffer.
From an RQ perspective most cults require you to follow their tenants and have faith in their god... it kind of drowns the merit or makes the link to the cult seem lesser. (Erm seems a bit confused)

On the perspective of Looks, Wealth, realtionships, and social position - I'm all for some way to make the charcter integrated in to society or differentiated from other heroes..
But I 'ld rather such merits/flaws only had minor impact on the character proper.
A few examples from my own perspective (taking a Heorlting perspective);
*Married
*Married with Children
*Ridiculed by/Repected by Clan
*Ignored by/Ear of Ring (Tribal or Clan council)
*Good size Herd (Wealth)
*Heirloom - Bronze Broad Sword of an ancient hero, etc.
*Oath bound to Tribal Leader
*Good/Poor looks
*Issaries Blessing/Curse (wealth)
*Possibly a list of Gifts and associated Geases
*Commander of Fyrd

The idea being to round out character rather than power him up.

Cheers
Paul

 

[Lorgryt]

CPR vs First aid
If your playing RQ in a modern era, first aid would not teach you the basics of extracting arrows or quaterising wounds with a flaming brand;
You are going to be taught basic CPR and applications of pressure on a wound to stop bleeding.

So from this what I'm trying to say era and culture are going to influence what each skill represents.

I agree completely.

The expanded Intelligence for example, I would still argue this is an increase in the base INT score or simply a specialised skill/lore which deals with the specific details.

Expanded Intellect (varies) Advanced concepts come easy to you. This advantage can only be taken at character creation and can not be improved after the character is brought into play.
Each advantage point spent buys one level of Expanded Intellect. When making an improvement roll to raise a skill, you can add your Expanded Intellect to your die roll, making it more likely that you will get to roll for an increase.

On this one I don’t see what you mean. It adds to the die to go up, allowing an easer raise, not the base INT. Its mechanic is strictly a rule based mechanic, not a cultural or role based idea. How would a skill do this? The only way I can see is as a divisor add to the D100 to learn: such as “to raise the skill you roll 1D100+(Learning Skill/10)...”

Mind you, I don’t really find this a very good thing. It would seem to be a lot like Skill Talent in that its use is to speed up character development.

On the perspective of Looks, Wealth, realtionships, and social position - I'm all for some way to make the charcter integrated in to society or differentiated from other heroes..
But I 'ld rather such merits/flaws only had minor impact on the character proper.

...

The idea being to round out character rather than power him up.

I agree again. And I like your examples.

 

[Exubae]

On expanded Int
What I was trying to say, INT itself is the ability to grasp abstracts, so if you want to be better at (Expanded INT) things then you should have rolled a better score in INT or if the ref allows you, swap the scores of that outrageous DEX and INT

Any subset of understanding should be a specialised Lore.

In otherwords I cant see the point in the Expanded INT roll.

If the Intellect is allien... i.e Vulcans, Dragonewts, that is a roleplaying issue and shouldn't be bogged down with rules only guidelines, if you know what I mean

Cheers
Paul

 

[Utgardloki]

The argument could be made that CPR is merely the modern application of First Aid, while pulling arrows out of wounds is the archaic application of the skill. GURPS has a Tech Level attached to many skills, so if you take First Aid in GURPS, it is First Aid/TL7 or First Aid/TL 3 or First Aid/TL12.

I decided not to go with that approach. For one thing, in MRQ First Aid is a basic skill, which means it's printed on the character sheet and anybody can make the attempt. Not just anybody can administer CPR. I could put a skill cutoff on CPR (i.e., you need 50% in First Aid to administer CPR), but it is possible to have CPR training without being very skilled (just take the course and get the certificate, like I did).

The approach I decided was to let First Aid be First Aid, which means that I don't change that part of the rules. Then create special training advantages to represent that "George has First Aid and training in CPR techniques, so he can try to revive someone whos breathing has stopped."

There was a long thread on how to handle technology and skills. My approach was to use specializations and special training advantages tailored to each skill, rather than try to rate the effectiveness of a skill going up and down the technology scale.

To sum up, the advantages of having a CPR Training advantage are:

1. I don't have to change any rules regarding First Aid,

2. I can reserve CPR for modern characters (or even archaic characters who are able to learn the techniques -- maybe there is a Runequest Cult that teaches these)

3. It is possible to be able to perform CPR, but not be very good at it. (In real life, I probably fit in that category, since without professional training, I could make an attempt, but would probably fail.)

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

On expanded Int
What I was trying to say, INT itself is the ability to grasp abstracts, so if you want to be better at (Expanded INT) things then you should have rolled a better score in INT or if the ref allows you, swap the scores of that outrageous DEX and INT

Any subset of understanding should be a specialised Lore.

In otherwords I cant see the point in the Expanded INT roll.

If the Intellect is allien... i.e Vulcans, Dragonewts, that is a roleplaying issue and shouldn't be bogged down with rules only guidelines, if you know what I mean

Cheers
Paul

Maybe "Expanded INT" is a misleading name for what the OP was trying to get at? "Quick to master"/"Quick to learn"/"Skill affinity" or something like that may be more suitable?