Advancement in Traveller?

[Gee4orce]

Yes, the heart of many stories is the journey a character goes on. But usually that's an emotional journey of personal discovery - not one where the character wakes up one day and says "F*ck me I just levelled up!"

The examples quoted don't really sound like the situation in most Traveller games:

Harry Potter: these stories take place over the course of many years. In Traveller terms, that's easily a couple of terms !

LoTR: I specifically mentioned this myself because I can't actually think of genuine, quantifiable advancements in skill or abilities the characters make. Yes, they gain in status and confidence, but Merry and Pippin probably don't gain much more than Blade:1 in the whole story. Gandalf's rebirth is just that - he is re-incarnated as another entity with entirely transformed powers. Aragorn takes up his status as the King returned, but doesn't get Admin:1 to go with it as far as I can tell - just a big boost to SOC

Luke Skywalker: is the best example of on-screen development I can think of. But arguably his abilities are latent at the start of the film anyway (he's probably got unspent Character Points !). And he does go through an intensive spat of training on Dagobah. I always felt his training was far too compressed to be remotely realistic anyway (compare to what the other characters do in this time).

Anakin Skywalker: erm - you're talking about the formative years of the kid's life here. Easily equivalent to 4 or 5 traveller terms.

Biographies: you're talking about the character back story here. This is the story of what happened during character creation, not what happened during gameplay.

The most extreme character advancement (in terms of skills and abilities) is probably found in super hero genesis stories: Peter Parker gets bitten by a radioactive spider and develops superpowers. But these are the genesis of the character - in game terms they are back story. I think the other players would be rightly pissed if one of your PCs suddenly developed Spiderman's powers halfway through a campaign arc (unless they all did it).

 

[Bense]

Harry Potter: these stories take place over the course of many years. In Traveller terms, that's easily a couple of terms !

Seven years - almost two terms. But Harry Potter learns much more than just "Sorcery 2" in that time.

LoTR: I specifically mentioned this myself because I can't actually think of genuine, quantifiable advancements in skill or abilities the characters make. Yes, they gain in status and confidence, but Merry and Pippin probably don't gain much more than Blade:1 in the whole story.

Aside from swordfighting, Merry and Pippin also learn horse riding, survival, boating, negotiation skills, some language skills, a great deal of history, and tactics. They also increase in size and strength (due in part to Treebeard's draughts, but also due to a year of hard traveling). They make use of some of these skills in the Scouring of the Shire, and are easily able to route bad guys that would have given them trouble at the beginning of the book. In one year they pick up at least 6 or 7 skill levels.

Gandalf's rebirth is just that - he is re-incarnated as another entity with entirely transformed powers.

I thought the question was whether he levelled up, not how he levelled up.

Aragorn takes up his status as the King returned, but doesn't get Admin:1 to go with it as far as I can tell - just a big boost to SOC

Which is why I didn't pick Aragorn as an example. He basically is really tough to begin with, and doesn't gain much in the way of skills.

Luke Skywalker: is the best example of on-screen development I can think of. But arguably his abilities are latent at the start of the film anyway (he's probably got unspent Character Points !).

In terms of the Star Wars RPG he gains Jedi levels to add to his starting Scout class.

And he does go through an intensive spat of training on Dagobah. I always felt his training was far too compressed to be remotely realistic anyway (compare to what the other characters do in this time).

I guess that all depends on how long you think it took the Millenium Falcon to go from Hoth to Bespin with no hyperdrive. Relativistic effects?

Anakin Skywalker: erm - you're talking about the formative years of the kid's life here. Easily equivalent to 4 or 5 traveller terms.

Except that Anakin is only about 22 when he becomes a Sith Lord. Traveller characters would have 1 term at that point.

 

[rust]

And we also have Heinlein's Starship Troopers, which spends quite a lot
of pages describing skill training.

 

[hector]

LoTR: I specifically mentioned this myself because I can't actually think of genuine, quantifiable advancements in skill or abilities the characters make. Yes, they gain in status and confidence, but Merry and Pippin probably don't gain much more than Blade:1 in the whole story.

Aside from swordfighting, Merry and Pippin also learn horse riding, survival, boating, negotiation skills, some language skills, a great deal of history, and tactics. They also increase in size and strength (due in part to Treebeard's draughts, but also due to a year of hard traveling). They make use of some of these skills in the Scouring of the Shire, and are easily able to route bad guys that would have given them trouble at the beginning of the book. In one year they pick up at least 6 or 7 skill levels.

Having said that, how much time did they spend travelling in the first book alone, and how much time did they spend resting in Lothlorien? Plenty of time for picking up skills during their travels

 

[DFW]

Harry Potter: these stories take place over the course of many years. In Traveller terms, that's easily a couple of terms !

Seven years - almost two terms. But Harry Potter learns much more than just "Sorcery 2" in that time.

Hmm, other than "Sorc" I can't think of other skills he really learns during this time.

 

[rust]

Hmm, other than "Sorc" I can't think of other skills he really learns during this time.

You could start with beastlore and herblore, but there are lots of other
subjects mentioned, too.

 

[DFW]

Hmm, other than "Sorc" I can't think of other skills he really learns during this time.

You could start with beastlore and herblore, but there are lots of other
subjects mentioned, too.

All part of general education. Same as our H.S. EDU. Not really much of skill levels.

 

[FreeTrav]

I think this whole idea of characters advancing in-game goes right back to the original DnD, and it has coloured player's expectations ever since. It really is nice to have a character that improves in ability as you play it, but really can you think of any examples in literature or film where this happens during the story?

Elizabeth Moon, The Deed of Paksenarrion trilogy. That immediately came to mind; I'm sure that if I take a little time to browse my shelves, I'll come up with a few others.

 

[locarno24]

Hire an instructor from outside the party.

You can, but it's supposedly discouraged:

The greatest assets an individual character has is his pool of skills, so we encourage the Referee to exercise great caution in allowing Player Characters to simply hire Non-Player Characters for their Instruction skill.

Seven years - almost two terms. But Harry Potter learns much more than just "Sorcery 2" in that time.

I think that what happended to him probably qualified as at least one relevant event/mishap per term, representing another possible couple of skill levels, and there's arguably a level as a 'background' skill given his origin that he doesn't at first know he has. That's a possible Sorcery/5....

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

LoTR: I specifically mentioned this myself because I can't actually think of genuine, quantifiable advancements in skill or abilities the characters make. Yes, they gain in status and confidence, but Merry and Pippin probably don't gain much more than Blade:1 in the whole story.

Aside from swordfighting, Merry and Pippin also learn horse riding, survival, boating, negotiation skills, some language skills, a great deal of history, and tactics. They also increase in size and strength (due in part to Treebeard's draughts, but also due to a year of hard traveling). They make use of some of these skills in the Scouring of the Shire, and are easily able to route bad guys that would have given them trouble at the beginning of the book. In one year they pick up at least 6 or 7 skill levels.

No, Merry gets a lucky blow in, Pippin (I think) gets run over by a troll. Riding? Carried as baggage on most occaions, otherwise what is so hard about sitting on a pony? What they learn is self confidence and maturity, they were sons of important families anyway (well, important in the Shire, its all relative), they just needed to grow up a bit (which is a theme throughout for men and hobbits). Merry could already boat anyway (because his family were a bit odd). Language skills? A smattering of Elvish. They might have gained blade 0, language 0, perhaps advocate or persuade, 0. Definately Endurance +3, but thats about it.

To be frank, Tolkein never wrote to show the physical progress of his characters, he was interested in their moral improvement (or decay), so this is hardly a very useful book for Sci-fi character development. So, real world examples might be more useful. If you need to develop a skill, put the hours in!

Egil

 

[BP]

Fortunately, over the decades, the majority of my players have learned RP from me and weren't exposed to 'skill advancement'... we focus on playing with the skills they have.

One of the things I liked early on about Traveller was the fact that PC motivations and Player motivations did not focus on XP and such - it encourages more Roleplay vs. Ruleplay in my experience.

Mostly, I see a >0 skill level representing 1 to 4 years of training/experience - for campaigns, I might increment skill levels as I see fit - but this would not be anything a player would intentionally pursue, nor have a knowledge of game mechanics to strive for.

With MgT, I am considering awarding Skill-0 for multiple, successful (and marginal unsuccessful) non-skilled checks - but I would put no hard numbers to such.

IMTU, players can become more powerful/proficient via technology - so I put no emphasis on 'leveling-up'...

 

[Bense]

No, Merry gets a lucky blow in...

Which he only landed because he had been practicing with a sword in the first place, a skill he didn't learn in Hobbiton.

Pippin (I think) gets run over by a troll...

But not before he participates in the battle.

Riding? Carried as baggage on most occaions, otherwise what is so hard about sitting on a pony?

Riding a pony for thousands of miles does develop some skill in doing so, and the return journey was almost entirely on horseback.

What they learn is self confidence and maturity, they were sons of important families anyway (well, important in the Shire, its all relative), they just needed to grow up a bit (which is a theme throughout for men and hobbits).

Yes, they learned self confidence and maturity along with other skills.

Merry could already boat anyway (because his family were a bit odd).

Yes he could, but he learned how to navigate waters outside of the Shire as well - most probably increasing his skill.

Language skills? A smattering of Elvish. They might have gained blade 0, language 0, perhaps advocate or persuade, 0. Definately Endurance +3, but thats about it.

Even this rather conservative list is at least 6 skill rolls worth of stuff. And you make no mention of History.

To be frank, Tolkein never wrote to show the physical progress of his characters, he was interested in their moral improvement (or decay)...

True for the most part, but the Scouring of the Shire makes it clear that the Hobbits have physically progressed and learned practical and useful skills on their journey, which lasted a year.

The original question was "can you think of a work where the characters progress similarly to D&D?" Tolkien is an obvious example.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Re: Bense

We are going to have to disagree on this. Merry's actions show his bravery and spirit, and that he now knows which is the sharp end of a blade, but that's about it. Same with Pippin and Sam. Similarly the other skills, a few level 0, but the hobbits never become cavalrymen,etc. Being part of history doesn't neccessarily help you to a History skill either (look at Forrest Gump). I think you down play the skills the hobbits already had (Frodo already knew a lot of history, they all had that hobbit ability to hide etc).

Remember the scouring of the shire is very much a sunday league fixture, Sharkey is a ghost of Saruman, his followers are a useless collection of thugs and busy bodies. I know that it isn't quite played for comic effect, but considering what the hobbits have passed through, if they couldn't sort the shire out, then they might as well go back to Mordor.

None of this shows any great growth of physical skills, its pychological and moral. I don't see that the D and D advancement system is here or there, certainly Tolkein didn't write to illustrate a rpg that didn't exist!

Egil

 

[Bense]

We are going to have to disagree on this. Merry's actions show his bravery and spirit, and that he now knows which is the sharp end of a blade, but that's about it. Same with Pippin and Sam. Similarly the other skills, a few level 0, but the hobbits never become cavalrymen,etc.

Of course they hardly could, being Hobbits. The measure isn't "did they become capable of fighting like the Rohirrim" but "did they become more capable than they started?" Frodo, perhaps not so much, but Pippin and Merry definitely gain in skill, and Sam grows the most of all four of the Hobbits.
Sam fights off Shelob and kills several orcs during his adventure.

Being part of history doesn't neccessarily help you to a History skill either (look at Forrest Gump).

But learning it from "the horse's mouth" as it were certainly does help. Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf - these people didn't just nod at the hobbits as they went through - they also taught. All the songs and lore that was told in Rivendell and Lorien weren't just pretty words to the Hobbits.

I think you down play the skills the hobbits already had (Frodo already knew a lot of history, they all had that hobbit ability to hide etc).

Which is why I didn't pick Frodo as an example, as the practical skills he gains pale in comparison to the real lessons he learns, but even Frodo picks up survival skills, riding skills, more history, more elvish, and some geographic knowledge he didn't have before. Frodo was a remarkable Hobbit to start with, but he became even more remarkable by the end of the journey.

Remember the scouring of the shire is very much a sunday league fixture, Sharkey is a ghost of Saruman, his followers are a useless collection of thugs and busy bodies. I know that it isn't quite played for comic effect, but considering what the hobbits have passed through, if they couldn't sort the shire out, then they might as well go back to Mordor.

Of course - because what they passed through changed them. It taught them, and they learned their lessons well. You could go with the theory that if they had stayed behind things wouldn't have gotten as bad in the Shire because they would have been just as capable as they were at the end of the story, but the story makes it clear to me that they were able to route the "sunday league" only because they had grown out of what they were. Indeed, Gandalf uses almost those very words when he leaves them at the border.

None of this shows any great growth of physical skills, its pychological and moral. I don't see that the D and D advancement system is here or there, certainly Tolkein didn't write to illustrate a rpg that didn't exist!

Quite the opposite. The authors of D&D wrote in an advancement system to emulate what they saw in Tolkien and other fantasy works. As I pointed out earlier, character growth in adversity is a pretty common theme.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

No, we just aren't going to agree on this. Hobbits certainly get Tourism 1, perhaps gain a handful of level 0 skills, but thats about it, I suppose a lot depends on how many, and at what level, you want to skill Aragorn, Legolas etc. The progression in D and D owes a lot more to Conan and Fafhrd than Frodo and Merry.

To try to get back to topic, that is part of the problem with D and D xp systems, its like collecting tokens, by doing the same thing repeatedly until you get an ability rise. Does that increase skills in the real world? No, its just doing a job. In fiction? Sometimes, but other motives and stories are often more important (e.g. in LotR (sorry, couldn't help that))

So, I am not sold on xp type systems in traveller, can't really see the need. However, years ago when I played a lot of AD & D, I would have found a system were the main motivation was not "gaining a level" very odd, think my views on rpg have changed a lot over time

Egil

Edit, a last thought, if the hobbits have 6 or so level 0 skills, they still have a worthwhile skill set!

 

[Bense]

No, we just aren't going to agree on this. Hobbits certainly get Tourism 1, perhaps gain a handful of level 0 skills, but thats about it, I suppose a lot depends on how many, and at what level, you want to skill Aragorn, Legolas etc. The progression in D and D owes a lot more to Conan and Fafhrd than Frodo and Merry.

So you would say that Conan and Fafhrd show more progression between their stories than Merry and Pippin do in the one novel where they appear?
Interesting. I wouldn't agree. Some of Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are clearly set early in their careers, where they are less experienced, but for the majority of them they are basically at the same level of competency, with little change in ability (and seemingly learning little from their experiences).

To try to get back to topic, that is part of the problem with D and D xp systems, its like collecting tokens, by doing the same thing repeatedly until you get an ability rise. Does that increase skills in the real world? No, its just doing a job. In fiction?

D&D's XP system is not about doing the same thing repeatedly, unless you define "the same thing" as "defeating obstacles".
That is, that the extremely varied encounters with monsters that have different methods of attack or even biology in which you use different tactics to defeat them are the same as the clever traps you defeat and the story rewards you get for good role playing or such. It's not really a tenable position.

In my youth I became a much better driver by having a job as a pizza delivery driver. Doing "the same thing repeatedly" gave me better skills. Why? Because each delivery was actually quite different. Different terrain, different weather conditions, different people driving around me, etc.

In my work I have learned a great deal of practical skills over time. I received some formal training, but the majority has simply come from dealing with day-to-day situations.

So, I am not sold on xp type systems in traveller, can't really see the need.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think Traveller needs a skill advancement system akin to D&D's level gains. But I think you are giving D&D short shift.

However, years ago when I played a lot of AD & D, I would have found a system were the main motivation was not "gaining a level" very odd, think my views on rpg have changed a lot over time

This is the old "all D&D players immaturely care only about gaining levels, but some of us out grow this and go on to more mature systems" stereotype, and it's pretty insulting to paint them all with such a wide brush.
Sure some match the stereotype (as you apparently once did). Many, many others do not.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

No, we just aren't going to agree on this. Hobbits certainly get Tourism 1, perhaps gain a handful of level 0 skills, but thats about it, I suppose a lot depends on how many, and at what level, you want to skill Aragorn, Legolas etc. The progression in D and D owes a lot more to Conan and Fafhrd than Frodo and Merry.

So you would say that Conan and Fafhrd show more progression between their stories than Merry and Pippin do in the one novel where they appear?
Interesting. I wouldn't agree. Some of Conan and Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are clearly set early in their careers, where they are less experienced, but for the majority of them they are basically at the same level of competency, with little change in ability (and seemingly learning little from their experiences).

To try to get back to topic, that is part of the problem with D and D xp systems, its like collecting tokens, by doing the same thing repeatedly until you get an ability rise. Does that increase skills in the real world? No, its just doing a job. In fiction?

D&D's XP system is not about doing the same thing repeatedly, unless you define "the same thing" as "defeating obstacles".
That is, that the extremely varied encounters with monsters that have different methods of attack or even biology in which you use different tactics to defeat them are the same as the clever traps you defeat and the story rewards you get for good role playing or such. It's not really a tenable position.

In my youth I became a much better driver by having a job as a pizza delivery driver. Doing "the same thing repeatedly" gave me better skills. Why? Because each delivery was actually quite different. Different terrain, different weather conditions, different people driving around me, etc.

In my work I have learned a great deal of practical skills over time. I received some formal training, but the majority has simply come from dealing with day-to-day situations.

So, I am not sold on xp type systems in traveller, can't really see the need.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think Traveller needs a skill advancement system akin to D&D's level gains. But I think you are giving D&D short shift.

However, years ago when I played a lot of AD & D, I would have found a system were the main motivation was not "gaining a level" very odd, think my views on rpg have changed a lot over time

This is the old "all D&D players immaturely care only about gaining levels, but some of us out grow this and go on to more mature systems" stereotype, and it's pretty insulting to paint them all with such a wide brush.
Sure some match the stereotype (as you apparently once did). Many, many others do not.

Re: Fafhrd etc, yes, they show more progress in skills than Merry and Pippin do (though, to be fair, they have longer). Pulp fantasy books are the real source for D and D, the halflings etc just got bundled up in the package.

Re: XP I am strongly in favour of story telling rewards, and in the end we found ourselves working around the AD and D xp system, which does lead to the more interesting challenges you mention. However, D and D xp encourages the good old dungeon crawl. I don't think I am giving it short shrift, it serves a purpose, but the game engine can sometimes end of directing the vehicle, rather than just giving it motion.

Re: Pizza, glad that helped your driving, though some of the worse driver I have ever sat in a car with are taxi drivers, who drive all the time. Seriously, skill acquisition in the real world is a complicated thing, with different types of skill etc, very hard to model in any game. Sometimes we learn most from when things go wrong, try to model that in a rpg....

Re: Steroe typical D and D. Mea Culpa. Like most steroetypes, it also contains a lot of truth. However, I refuse to be too negative about my teenage self, we all start somewhere!

Egil

 

[CosmicGamer]

Re: Pizza, glad that helped your driving, though some of the worse driver I have ever sat in a car with are taxi drivers, who drive all the time. Seriously, skill acquisition in the real world is a complicated thing, with different types of skill etc, very hard to model in any game. Sometimes we learn most from when things go wrong, try to model that in a rpg....

Had a system where a natural 12 and natural 2 contributed towards gaining or improving the skill being used.

 

[DCAnsell]

My tendency is to look at situations in the game story, most especially what the players have their characters spend their time doing. For example, in one game a good while ago, the group had their first firefight. It turned out that one of the characters, a scholar, had no gun combat skill.

So after the fight, a marine in the group took the scholar aside, at odd points during the mornings, on the mining rig they were working on, and showed him the basics of what end of the gun the bullets came out of, and a general overview of getting the bullets to go to the desired location when fired. At the end of the adventure, which took a couple months of in-game time, I gave the scholar gun combat-0, and the marine instructor-0.

In effect, I'm pretty easy about letting somebody pick up the level 0 basic skills, but after that, its very hard to increase them, since to me, each rise of 1 skill level represents 2-4 years of hard experience or training.

 

[t6c]

In previous games, I simply kept track of time and allowed a player selected skill to increase by 1 every three game years. My rationale was that what they were doing now was probably about as intense as their previous careers. However, they were not being trained at someone else's expense, so they may not pursue improvement with as much vigor. (Constantly being shot at or looking for next law to break is probably a bit distracting.)

Secondly, Traveller already has an advancement system in place, but GMs and players don't know how to use it. "Advancement" generally means an increase in power or capability and in Traveller that means more knowledge and connections. Which would you rather have--
a) An FGMP-15;
b) Energy Weapons-4; or
c) Compromising Holopics featuring an Imperial Marine Colonel, a couple of burly Imperial Navy Chief Petty Officers (sex undetermined), and a tub of pudding?

GDW and Mongoose created social standing, rivals, and allies so that players can benefit from adventuring by getting to know stuff. A veteran Traveller should never be in the position of being somebody that nobody sent.