Advanced Victory at Sea

[juggler69uk]

This will end up being over detailed and less fun to play if you are not careful. dont over complicate rules just because you can or think that it needs to be added realistically in the name of "advanced rules", the more you add in can make a game slower to play

In this I mean just one instance for the traverse problem for main guns at point blank, you can say it also depends on the targets silhouette and when to apply any modifiers. eg target moving across, towards or away from firer

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Point taken.

Rules will stay as is for simplicities sake.... at least for now... right now its off to finish the french!

 

[Joe_Dracos]

French Battlships

Courbet Class Battleship
Name: Courbet, Paris

Speed: 4in Armour: 4+ Special: Torpedo Belt, 1 Aircraft,
Turning: 1 Damage: 29/9 In Service:1913 Lumbering
Target: 4+ Crew: 44/14

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(2x12in) 32 2 1 -
B Turret(2x12in) 32 2 1 -
X Turret(2x12in) 32 2 1 -
Y Turret(2x12in) 32 2 1 -
Secondary 12 14 1 Weak

Bretagne Class Battleship
Name: Bretagne, Lorraine, Provence

Speed: 4in Armour: 4+ Special: Torpedo Belt, 1 Aircraft,
Turning: 1 Damage: 27/9 In Service:1915 Lumbering
Target: 4+ Crew: 45/15

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(2x13in) 32 2 2 -
B Turret(2x13in) 32 2 2 -
Q Turret(2x13in) 32 2 2 -
X Turret(2x13in) 32 2 2 -
Y Turret(2x13in) 32 2 2 -
Secondary 12 8 1 Weak

Normandie Class Battle Cruiser
Name: Nomandie, Languedoc, Gascoigne, Flandre

Speed: 4in Armour: 5+ Special: Torpedo Belt, 2 Aircraft,
Turning: 1 Damage: 25/8 In Service:1924 Lumbering
Target: 4+ Crew: 48/16

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(4x13.4in) 36 4 2 AP
B Turret(4x13.4in) 36 4 2 AP
X Turret(4x13.4in) 36 4 2 AP
Secondary 12 11 1 Weak
Port Torpedoes 10 1 3 AP, One-Shot
Strbrd Torpedoes 10 1 3 AP, One-Shot





Lyon Class Battleship
Name: Lyon, Lille

Speed: 4in Armour: 6+ Special: Torpedo Belt, 4 Aircraft, lumbering, armoured deck
Turning: 1 Damage: 29/9 In Service:1924 Lumbering
Target: 4+ Crew: 48/16

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(4x13.4in) 40 4 2 AP
B Turret(4x13.4in) 40 4 2 AP
X Turret(4x13.4in) 40 4 2 AP
Y Turret(4x13.4in) 40 4 2 AP
Secondary 12 12 1 Weak
47mm 8 6 - AA
13.2mm - 1 - AA, Point Defence
Port Torpedoes 10 1 3 AP, One-Shot
Strbrd Torpedoes 10 1 3 AP, One-Shot

Dunkurque Class Battle Cruiser
Name: Dunkurque, Strasbourgh

Speed: 6in Armour: 6+ Special: Torpedo Belt, 4 Aircraft
Turning: 1 Damage: 47/15 In Service:1938 Lumbering
Target: 4+ Crew: 62/20

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(4x13.4in) 40 4 2 AP
B Turret(4x13.4in) 40 4 2 AP
Secondary 12 8 1 Weak
37mm 5 1 - AA
13.2mm - 4 - AA, Point Defence

Richelieu Class Battleship
Name: Richelieu, Jean Bart, Clemenceau

Speed: 4in Armour: 6+ Special: Torpedo Belt, 4 Aircraft, armoured deck, Lumbering
Turning: 1 Damage: 29/9 In Service:1940
Target: 4+ Crew: 48/16

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(4x13.4in) 44 4 2 AP
B Turret(4x13.4in) 44 4 2 AP
Secondary 14 10 1 Weak
37mm 8 1 - AA
13.2mm - 2 - AA, Point Defence



Alsace Class Battleship
Name: Alsace, Bourgougne

Speed: 6in Armour: 6+ Special: Torpedo Belt, Armoured Deck, Radar 4 Aircraft
Turning: 1 Damage: 45/14 In Service:1943
Target: 4+ Crew: 60/20

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret(4x14.9in) 44 4 3 AP
B Turret(4x14.9in) 44 4 3 AP
X Turret(4x14.9in) 44 4 3 AP
Secondary 14 14 1 Weak
37mm 5 4 - AA
Forward Torpedoes 10 1 3 AP, One-Shot


Priority Levels

Battle
Courbet
Bretange
Dunkurque
Normandie

War
Richelieu
Lyon
Alsace

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Fleet special rules

Royal Navy

Experience crews: all Royal Navy ships use professional sailors and have officers that were serving during the great war. All RN ships (not the Leander or Perth class vessels, or the Uganda as these are ships from the Royal New Zealand Navy, Royal Australian Navy and the Royal Canadian Navy. Any ships that are from these subsidiary fleets will not benefit from this rule) have +1 to there Crew Quality.

Unreliable Torpedoes: Royal navy torpedoes were never properly tested during the pre-war years and problems in there guidance systems developed. All RN and Commenweath ships reroll CQ checks for Torpedo strikes. If a 1 is rolled (not re-rolled though) roll the die again. On a 6 the torpedo strikes a random friendly ship in range (including the ship that launched it).

Hedgehogs: Only the RN and its subsidiary fleets may make depth charge attacks out of there front arc.

Subsidiary fleets:

RAN: Persistant crews - These ships ignore the effects of being crippled, but take 1 point of damage every turn that they move more then half there available speed or take more then a 1 point turn. (this applies to all perth class vessels and any destroyers that are dubbed Austrailain, as well as any 1 Kent class cruisers)

RnZN: Tenatious fighters - Any weapon that is not twin-linked (except torpedos, secondary weapons and AA weapons) are treated as twin-linked. If the ship goes evasive, it ignores both the effects of twin-linked and the negative effects of being evasive. (this only applies to the ships of the Leander class).

RCN: Expert sub chasers - These ships reroll failed detection rolls and failed depth charge attacks.

Green Crews - the RCN had vrey few ships at the out-break of WWII. All crews of any Canadian ship (Uganda, Ontario, and any desrtroyers flying the beloved Maple leaf) are -1 crew quality.

Japanesse Navy

Uses the Core books special rules.

US navy

Conscipted navy: The entirety of the US navy after pearl harbour utilized very few professional sailers. Most of there ships had to be rebuilt and recrewed from a combination of conscripts and volunteers. All CQ checks are made at -1 with the exception of Fire control and damage control (to represent the amount of profession sailors)

Island Hoping: If the battle takes place in the pacific, then the USN is always the attacker.

Air over surface attack: in any battle the USN always gets 1 FAP extra to spend on aircraft (providing the attack is taking place in good weather and not at night). This must be spent on aircraft wings. This may be either carrier based aircraft or land based aircraft.

France

Vichy France/Free France: France may operate as either an axis power or an allied power in campaigns. They may also fight there own countrymen.

Vichy France: For the Treachery of the British at Mesar-El-Kalb the Vichy forces recieve a +1 to targeting against any British ship. At the outset of battle foll a d6 for each foreign vessel (including subsidiary fleet ships). On a 4+ they are "misidentified" as British.

Free France: These are the underdogs. They do not heed the wims of larger powers but operate under there own agenda's to free there homeland of the Germans and the Traitorous Petain regime. Any German or Vichy French ships on the table must be targeted above all others. In addition the Free French ships will deploy sperately from any allied vessels in a seperate deployment zone.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

New Rule

Fleet organization:

Ships may be chosen from seperate fleets in the following combinations (and only in the following combinations).

Atlantic only:

RN (and subsidiary fleets), USN, Polish (only 1 ship), Free France, Belgian, Dutch

German, Italian

Pacific only

Japanesse, Vichy France (battle level or lower representing captured ships in Indochina)

Raid level ships or lower: RN (and RAN), USN, Dutch

USN, RAN, RnZN, Free France.

Royal Navy, Free France.

 

[DM]

Unreliable Torpedoes: Royal navy torpedoes were never properly tested during the pre-war years and problems in there guidance systems developed. All RN and Commenweath ships reroll CQ checks for Torpedo strikes. If a 1 is rolled (not re-rolled though) roll the die again. On a 6 the torpedo strikes a random friendly ship in range (including the ship that launched it).

????!!!!!!

RN torpedoes were considerably more reliable than US and German torpedoes.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Did the US or Germans torpedo there own ship?

 

[Ben2]

Some German torpedoes managed to hit the ship that fired them.

Seriously, german magnetic seeking torpedoes would, if they missed, lock on to the nearest large metal object, sometimes the sbmarine that fired it.

Everyone had a dud problem with torps at the start of the war, the Americans were particularly bad, and the British and German torpedoes were nothing to write home about.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

well since I haven't done the germans yet.... one might assume that I am creating rules that represent ever nations particular problem.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

and I neglected to put down US unreliable torpedos

Unreliable torpedoes: re-roll all hits.

 

[DM]

Did the US or Germans torpedo there own ship?

Yes

 

[juggler69uk]

.... one might assume that I am creating rules that represent ever nations particular problem.

Goes for the old old one.......

Never Assume

it only makes an ASS out of U and ME :lol:

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Mmm cleches....

Actually if I recall the British were the only ones to have successfully torpedoed themselves in battle....

what ships torpedoed themselves?

 

[DM]

If you are talking technical reasons for a blue on blue incident then several US submarines were sunk by their own circling torpedoes and by premature detonations (the story of early war US torpedoes borders on the criminal). I'm guessing the RN incident you are talking about would be the Trinidad which featured a presumed faulty gyro in low temperature conditions. Not exactly typical operating conditions.

If you are talking about operational reasons for torpedo blue on blues it it worth remmebering that blue on blue torpedo and gunnery incidents were quite common during WW2 for all participants. Wargfamers have a fantastic view of the battlefield and thus enjoy excellent comamnd and control. Its alla bit more tricky at sea level, as I have found from personal expereince (and that was with the benefit of current technology sensors and command systems!)

 

[Ben2]

factoring in blue on blue incidents into a wargames as a speciic trait for a navy probably isn't a good idea. Having torpedoes lose and reacquire locks randomly sounds good in theory, but adds a level of omplexity that doesn't add much to the game.
In a game with a much larger level of detailing like SFB or Seekrieg, you can add factors like that in, though there will be arguments on whether they apply, for example in early 1942 the US navy crews were quite green, but in 1944 would this be true? Is it worth having special rules for the lack of experience of US crews when they only effect a specific time period as players will generally opt not to use them, and they would be completely missed out from tournament play.
I'm not sure "racial" traits are a good idea at all. Crew quality should be factored in using existing crew quality rules, which mean that ships with low quality crews will generally ail special orders and fail to repair stuff.

While adding a rule saying, for example, that when a US ship fires its torpedoes roll a D6 for each one fired and on a one it proves to be a dud and does not get to roll to hit the target is fine, quick and workable, but a mechanic by which torpedoes may be randomly assigned targets including the firing ship would likely necessitate the use of percentile dice, and also be a general pain in the ass.

We are all assuiming that stuff works when required to because creating and integrating rules for it to go horribly rong whenever anything is done will complicate the game and lead to a far larger amount of luck deciding the game rather than tactics.

My 2 pence anyway.

 

[juggler69uk]

RAN: Persistant crews - These ships ignore the effects of being crippled, but take 1 point of damage every turn that they move more then half there available speed or take more then a 1 point turn. (this applies to all perth class vessels and any destroyers that are dubbed Austrailain, as well as any 1 Kent class cruisers)

How can Crew ability completely ignore the effects of a crippled ship ??

I mean if engines are damaged they cant suddenly apply full speed because the crew is persistent
Simililarly with weapons and other systems

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Sorry I haven't replied in a while, my wedding is just around the corner. I will continue at the earlies possible convienience.

As for the above comment... its a game not real life, and you are capable of pushing dmaged equipment at its regular pace, it just damages it further. The reduced speed and turning is representative of the ship loosing hull integrety not engine efficiency.

 

[juggler69uk]

As for the above comment... its a game not real life, .

Sorry I thought for one minute back there you were using the advanced rules to be more Historically accurate factoring in real life abilities, since its just a game, I'm obviously out of line for suggesting such a thing, silly me, please accept my sincerest apologies...........

 

[Jack Tar]

Torpedoes (i know this will start some heated discussion) - i couldnt see any torpedo rules, such as a torpedo can no longer travel underneath screening ships and must hit the first ship it comes in contact with.

 

[Twin-Linked Aldades]

and I neglected to put down US unreliable torpedos

Unreliable torpedoes: re-roll all hits.

Combined with a torpedo belt on the target, and let alone on Evasive, you`ll be re-rolling hits / damage 3 times before any damage done (once the hits for un reliable, once the hits for evasive, once the damage for the belt)

Apart that it ain`t worth to ever fire a torpedo again, this would slow down a game considerably for a single torp counter. Sure not for one, but with the amount of torps usually zipping around...