actual physical damge

strategos14

Mongoose
some of my players have wondered about healing so much damage naturally in such short periods of time. i try to explain to them that hit points don't ONLY represent physical health. it represents how long you can last in a fight. which is one reason why your hit points go up as you increase in experience i.e. level. in fact after battling for many rounds and getting "hit" many times i tell them that they may only have one real physical wound. that in a 6 second round, your one D20 roll means that you have one real CHANCE to gain advantage in this fight. that one roll doesn't mean one "swing." when they get hit once and taken from 50hp's to 40hp's, that doesn't necessarily mean that you got actually cut on your shoulder or something. in fact i kinda have it now that actual real flesh wounds only occur when criticaled, when 20hp's or more are dealt, or any time a "hit" takes a guy past 0 hit points drops him. i kinda keep track of scars this way as well. i have a thief in the group that has a wicked scar on his chest from 1st level when an arrow left him for dead. and anther from 6th level when he was blinded then stabbed in the back for an obscene amount of damage and again left for dead. (he has a few more but i can't remember of hand)
anyway I'm bored right now and just thought i'd share this but in closing if any player ever questions the amount of hit points gained back naturally, this may help to explain it to them
 
I think 2E Conan has one of the best descriptions of what hit points actually mean that I've ever read.

By extension, they do represent physical damage, and they do represent non-physical damage. They're an abstract way of expression small cuts, nicks, bruises, strained muscles, pulled tendons and other physical damage that is not critical. That's one reason why they take so long to heal--these types of things take time.

But, in addition to those minor physical traits of hit points, they also cover luck, expertise, Fate and the whim of the gods, fatigue, endurance, catching your breath, and all sorts of intangible, uncountable hindrances that can come into play during a battle.

The game doesn't specifically model that you twisted your ankle yesterday and, everytime you step on it, it hurts, but something like that would make you less effective in combat (thus you would have lower hit points than max).

And, besides that, hit points take into account that moment, right in the middle of your swing, when sweat drops into your eye, stinging it so much it autmatically blinks at the wrong instant, distracting you by just a fraction of a second--which can be deadly in a face-to-face combat.

Hit points are all this, plus the effects of that cold you're fighting off or the headache you have from last night's romp, all rolled together with all of your minor aches and pains and other distractions that would make you less effective in combat.

At least, that's what I think they are.
 
strategos14 said:
that in a 6 second round, your one D20 roll means that you have one real CHANCE to gain advantage in this fight. that one roll doesn't mean one "swing."

In AD&D, with it's one minute combat round, this is certainly the case. That's an abstract combat round, not unlike a wargame where a squadron of tanks gets one attack throw for its turn even though the turn length is 8 hours long. (Well, in AD&D, missiles weapons are counted as actual "shots" where as melee is taken abstractly.)

I'm sure that's how the six second round in 3.5E D&D and in Conan is supposed to be, but we don't play it that way. The Conan round is short enough to actually model single swings, so that's what we do.

Typically, 3 seconds is reserved for movement and 3 seconds reserved for swinging in a combat round. But, there's additonal attacks from being higher level, from Attacks of Opportunity, from having a second weapon, plus the effects of the combat manevuers that the d20 Conan game can really be turned into a simulation.

Our combat rounds are roleplayed. Just like you would describe a thief picking a lock: "What are you doing?"

"I'm getting down on one knee, squinting, using my open eye to peak through the key hole while automatically pulling the right picks from my leathern case on my belt by touch."

We describe each and every blow. It's not standard D&D fare at all. With all the combat maneuvers and skills that can affect combat, it's a slow motion, tactical, roleplayed encounter on a graph board.

"I lunge at the Vanir, taking my sword with both hands and slashing down at him, trying to slice across torso, right shoulder to left hip."

Attack die is thrown.

Defense die is thrown behind GM screen.

"The Vanir steps to his left then right. Your blade zips past him. He pulls his sword to his hip and then thrusts the tip at you as if he had a spear in his hands aimed at your gut."

Attack die thrown behind GM screen.

Player throws Defense die.

"On your backstroke, you knock it aside. Now, what do you do?"



It goes on like that with the players focused on the action on the graph paper.
 
i agree with all this for the most part. when i spoke of physical damage i should have specified that to mean "being stabbed or cut" or whatever. fatigue and wear and tear on the body would all count as physical though i wasn't thinking of that. (hell, in real life i've had a high ankle sprain since january. my movements halfed and if i swung a sword, id probably fall over lol) as far as healing naturally is concerned, my players mentioned that is was done too QUICKLY. (probably there used to old DD) but i disagree swinging once in 3 seconds. in that time i believe one could "swing" half a dozen times. on that show deadliest warrior, i just saw a man go to town on a pig with a sword. cut all to hell in that time. i guess i just see 6 seconds as a long time. and so is 3. alot is actually being done but is summed up with one roll and a brief description. and i don't know about every other game but i just can't see how every round is roll played out any more than:

i move here and attack . . . 21?
yep
9 points of damage AP
gotchya, next turn

i know some rounds are roll played more and described more. especially when something substantial happens. but combat is long enough as it is. i mean sometimes one battle or fight lasts two hours at the table and i know the players aren't wanting to dink around either. we roleplay enough outside of combat. at one point we had to put one player on the clock and give him a minute tops to come up with what he was going to do that round. because he always sat their and contemplated every round like it was the last one of his life yet would inevitably always end up running and/or hiding lol. damn it was funny. i love this game
 
strategos14 said:
i agree with all this for the most part. when i spoke of physical damage i should have specified that to mean "being stabbed or cut" or whatever.

I, personally, don't think a character is acutally deeply cut, has a bone crushed, or suffers any type of serious wound until he reaches 0 HP.

Reason? The healing rules. You can't heal a broken rib or deep sword slash as fast as hit points regenerate, especially if bed bound, which you probably would be if suffering from a critical wound.

This thinking flys in the face of some of the Feats and Combat Maneuvers. For example, the To The Hilt combat maneuver--there's no way that you can take a sword, stick it all the way into someone so that you can't yank it out (it's stuck on bone or something), and then have the victim heal up in a few days.

If so, it's got to be a pretty superficial cut.

Those types of wounds have to take the character to zero hit points. Either this, or the GM has to change the healing rules so that healing is slower to accommodate these more serious--even critical--wounds.
 
strategos14 said:
but i disagree swinging once in 3 seconds. in that time i believe one could "swing" half a dozen times. on that show deadliest warrior, i just saw a man go to town on a pig with a sword.

And, that's how the rules are written, I'm sure. But, don't forget movement, fakes, feints. Plus, many times, it is more than just one swing per 3 seconds. If the character has a shield or another weapon, he can swing twice. Attacks of Opportunity add in another swing. Combat Maneuvers add in yet another swing.

And...that just at low level. Gain a few levels, and the character gets two or more attacks per round.

So, when you disagree with swinging once per 3 seconds, realize that we're talking about novices, who are slow and unexperienced. And, that once per 3 seconds only happens if there are no attacks due to combat maneuvers, attacks of opportunity, second-hand weapons, and the like.

I think it models pretty well.





Go watch a fight scene on youtube from your favorite sword movie. Remember that the characters are usually higher level with at least two attacks per round (which means 1 attack per 1.5 seconds).

Look at the Rob Roy duel. It fits. Look at the first fight in the first episode of Spartacus Blood and Sand. It fits, too.
 
Supplement Four said:
I, personally, don't think a character is acutally deeply cut, has a bone crushed, or suffers any type of serious wound until he reaches 0 HP.

Reason? The healing rules. You can't heal a broken rib or deep sword slash as fast as hit points regenerate, especially if bed bound, which you probably would be if suffering from a critical wound.

This thinking flys in the face of some of the Feats and Combat Maneuvers. For example, the To The Hilt combat maneuver--there's no way that you can take a sword, stick it all the way into someone so that you can't yank it out (it's stuck on bone or something), and then have the victim heal up in a few days.

If so, it's got to be a pretty superficial cut.

Those types of wounds have to take the character to zero hit points. Either this, or the GM has to change the healing rules so that healing is slower to accommodate these more serious--even critical--wounds.



So...the question becomes: If a character is seriously or critically wounded, how should he heal?

Well, he should definitely heal slower than the normal rules.

I was thinking one of two ways should be adopted.

1 - If a character is seriously wounded during a fight and not brought to zero hit points (as with using the To The Hilt combat maneuver or the Permanent Damage rules in the Warrior's Guide), then treat the character as if he were at negative hit points, stable, and recovering without help (detailed on page 190-191 of the 2E Core Rulebook).

That is: He has a 10% chance each day of recovering points naturally. If he misses that throw, he loses a hit point. If makes it, he uses the normal healing rules.

This will put some extra time onto serious wounds.





But....is this still enough time?

Probably not, if you're talking about broken bones. I grabbed this off the net--

Average Time For Broken Bones To Heal
Collar bone (clavicle) 3-8 weeks
Shoulder blade (scapula) 6 weeks
Ribs 4 weeks
Upper arm (humerus) 4-10 weeks
Lower arm (radius,ulna) 6 weeks
Wrist 4-12 weeks
Fingers 4-6 weeks
Pelvis 4 - 6 weeks
Upper leg (femur) 12 weeks
Knee (patella) 4-6 weeks
Lower leg (tibia,fibula) 10-24 weeks
Ankle 6 weeks
Foot 3 - 12 weeks
Toes 3 weeks


Also note that these are the fastest expected times for healing, with the bone in a cast. If you smoke, dring alcohol heavy, or required surgical correction, these times may be longer. And, I bet, in a Hyborian Age situation, longer is probably more the rule.

And, if we start talking about stab/knife/puncture/sword wounds, recovery time is all over the place depending on what was cut internally.





But...But....These are Heroes! They can be done with a broken foot for 12 or more weeks!

That's what Fate Points are for. Use them lessen the severity of the wound so that the character heals using the rules from the book.





2 - My other thought is to, along with hit point damage, apply damage from serious and critical wounds to the victim's physical ability scores. That way, if you are stabbed or have your arm broken, your DEX, STR, and CON go down, taking benefits with them, possibly imposing negatives while you are hurt.

You'd have to make a slower ability recovery system,though, other than what's in the book. That's for poison and magic, and healing times are pretty quick.





The whole point of this post is to say: If a character sustains a serious wound, such as being stabbed, or having a bone crushed, or whatever, during the game, then his healing time should be adjusted to account for it.

And, Fate Points should be used to avoid these long delays in healing, allowing the character to use the standard hit point recovery rules.
 
Thinking more about serious and critical damage...

I always try to find ways within the rules to handle things not addressed in the rules. I'm thinking, for serious and critical wounds, the Disabled condition would be good to use.

The character would retain whatever hit points he has left (and not be at zero hit points as most Disabled characters are) but otherwise use the Disabled rules.

Thus, a Disabled character could make a single move or a standard action each round, but he cannot take full-actions. That makes sense. He's got a sword stuck in him, so he can't move fast.

Movement doesn't apply extra damage to him, but performing most standard actions or any strenuous action will take a toll of 1 hp damage.

Now, you would only use this in the rare occasions when the game specifically states that the character has taken a serious wound. For example, the victim of a To The Hilt combat maneuver.

He can remove the stuck weapon, as described in the maneuver, by aking a DC 10 STR check. He automatically takes 1d6 damage if he takes a move or standard action (he can't take a full round action because he's considered disabled).



So, if you are the victim of To The Hilt, then you take damage normally. You are considered disabled and cannot take full round actions. If you take a move action, you suffer 1d6 damage while the weapon is still stuck in you. If you take a standard action, you take 1d6+1 damage. Removing the weapon is a DC 10 STR check.

At this point, treat the character as described on page 190 under "Recovering With Help" and "Recovering Without Help", depending on whether the character has a healer attending him. The character is considered disabled, conscious and stable (so he will heal according to the rules on page 191--the two paragraphs above the "Healing" topic).


What do you think of that?
 
i totally agree with the more time to heal real wounds. criticals or wounds that drop a guy or maybe even those that require the save vs death. hell, some criticals end up kinda wimpy. everyones excited but then ya roll your twice for your broadsword, add your strength and come with a 9 lol, which is a quarter of the guys hit points. guess it would be kinda situational and a little ad-hoc (like a lot of things). the last session actually ended with a 7th level thief being blinded and then sneak attacked for a ton of damage by an assassin. he failed the save vs death and was taken deep into negatives, then used his last fate point to cling to life. next session, i'm just telling him straight up that it's weeks to get back to form, period. that he basically saw the light on that one and you have a wound like Liam Neesan in Kingdom of Heaven (rent the directors cut). that's definitely ad-hocin. i'd like to have it more structured and in writing and such like you're talking about, then everyone can agree on it and all that. of course that's more work. ALWAYS more work lol
ps watch the documentary, Reclaiming the Blade. it's a history on western sword fighting and martial arts. very informative and cool
 
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