About the God learner's secret...

[soltakss]

It'd be most helpful, though, if people who profess to know The Secret would just tell us (thus answering the basic question of this thread), preferably in three words or so.

What would be more helpful would be to forget that there was such a thing as the Godlearner Secret. There has been a lot of pointless speculation written about it that hasn't helped play them one little bit.

If the Godlearner Secret was required to play them then it would have been published.

The constant harping on about it is just boring, in my opinion.

 

[Rurik]

There is a hell of a lot of snobbery in roleplaying that I just do not like. Looking down on people who play AD&D, for instance, or being superior to munchkin players or whatever. If people enjoy what they do then let them do it without belittling them, no matter what style they play or how they choose to structure their games.

You pretty much just fumbled your Wallow in Elitism roll.

 

[soltakss]

You pretty much just fumbled your Wallow in Elitism roll.

Ah, that's a Gloranthan reference, though, from Dead Blue Clown's reasoned and balanced discussion of long-term Gloranthaphiles. Nothing to do with Roleplaying, but more about a game setting. Glorantha is, of course, the epitome of roleplaying game settings.

It's good for Powergaming, Ruleslawyering, Munchkinism and other lesser forms of Roleplaying as well.

 

[ninthcouncil]

It'd be most helpful, though, if people who profess to know The Secret would just tell us (thus answering the basic question of this thread), preferably in three words or so.

What would be more helpful would be to forget that there was such a thing as the Godlearner Secret. There has been a lot of pointless speculation written about it that hasn't helped play them one little bit.

The Godlearner Secret is like the Tao - the Secret that can be explained is not the Secret. :twisted:

 

[simonh]

Greg has explored Glorantha a lot further and in a lot more depth since RQ2/3...

So the Three Word Answer was The Secret but it's been 'Gregged', as they say. Fair enough. I can see why - there are lots of people out there who object really strongly to that much 'pulling back the veil' (see above!). Personally, I can live with it in 'my Glorantha' - but then I'm intending to stay safely in the 3rd Age...

No it wasn't. Bear in mind that his first stories about Glorantha concerned Prince Snodal, a heroquester responsible for The Ban in Fronella at the end of the 2nd Age - this was in the 1960s. He's been writing about the God Learners since before he's even played a roleplaying game.

Simon Hibbs

 

[simonh]

The Godlearner Secret is like the Tao - the Secret that can be explained is not the Secret. :twisted:

That's true, but there's another factor. I've explained Illumination to various people on the digest, in words of one sylable, since over 10 years ago, and they flat out refuse to believe me.

It comes down to world view. Some people are so absolutely convinced that their own view of how reality works is absolutely rigth that they cannot conceive of anyone else actually having a different world view. They assume that everyone that disagrees is just confused, or deliberately lying because they have some other agenda. Even if you explain a different world view in extreme detail, they're unable to parse it and use it to come to any conclusions, because they unconsciously always introduce axioms from their own world view without realizing what they're doing. They assume that becausse they are unable to come up with consistent conclusions in someone else's world view, that therefore nobody can.

All I'm trying to point out is that some secrets can be explained in very simple terms, but it will only make sense if you understand what those terms actually mean. Different philosophies use different definitions of terms, and mean different things by them, so while someone who understood the fundamentals of Malkionism and the Malkioni religious philosophy might understand the 'three word answer' (or however many worlds) immediately, someone who didn't might hear it and leap to a completely erroneous and misleading conclusion as to what it means.

Similarly with illumination. If you don't know what the Great Self is, or the All, or what "the world is illusion" actually really means as against what most people mistakenly think it means, then you'll never understand it any more than someone who doesn't know what E and M and C stand for could ever figure out what E=MC2 means.


Simon Hibbs

 

[frogspawner]

The constant harping on about it is just boring, in my opinion.

Er, you're the only one doing the harping now mate...

 

[frogspawner]

Here's an interesting page, all about the history of Chaosium:
http://www.rpg.net/columns/briefhistory/briefhistory3.phtml

WB&RM (wherein Glorantha is a game) finally published in 1975, after three previous attempts - how many years would that take? Enough to get us back very close to 1966, I'd say...

 

[The King]

Thanks for the article, frogspawner, but you also should have included the one about Glorantha: http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=5481

 

[Quire]

Thanks for the article, frogspawner, but you also should have included the one about Glorantha: http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=5481

???

JONRIL: GATEWAY TO THE SUNKEN LANDS

???

- Q

 

[The King]

Sorry, my odd habit to review several things at once. Here is the right link:
http://www.rpg.net/columns/briefhistory/briefhistory4.phtml

 

[frogspawner]

Thanks for the fixed link. Having read it, though, I don't see the relevance to this thread...

 

[The King]

Thanks for the fixed link. Having read it, though, I don't see the relevance to this thread...

Because it talks of Glorantha.
But Hey! you're the one who post a link on Chaosium history which is also unrelated to this thread.

 

[frogspawner]

Here's an interesting page, all about the history of Chaosium:
http://www.rpg.net/columns/briefhistory/briefhistory3.phtml

WB&RM (wherein Glorantha is a game) finally published in 1975, after three previous attempts - how many years would that take? Enough to get us back very close to 1966, I'd say...

I guess I'd better explain the relevance, then. From the history of Chaosium it seems Mr Stafford was actively seeking to publish Glorantha as a game for several years before 1975, and perhaps thinking about it before that. That is about the same time as the Godlearner Secret was supposedly being formulated. So the "GS talked about the Secret for years before RQ was published" argument does not rule out the Three Word Answer.

 

[simonh]

I guess I'd better explain the relevance, then. From the history of Chaosium it seems Mr Stafford was actively seeking to publish Glorantha as a game for several years before 1975, and perhaps thinking about it before that. That is about the same time as the Godlearner Secret was supposedly being formulated. So the "GS talked about the Secret for years before RQ was published" argument does not rule out the Three Word Answer.

Nevertheless Glorantha was not concieved as a game world, gaming came afterwards. Also this was as a board game, not a roleplaying game so the idea of playing characters in Glorantha as individuals with an individual world view wasn't an issue.

But ok, you might be right. The people who do know the god learner secret and have saidn since the 80s that this isn't the secret might be a bunch of flakes who have been lying about it outright for all these years.

I just don't see any good reason to believe that.

Simon Hibbs

 

[The King]

I don't know Greg Stafford and Glorantha enough to tell you if you're true or not, but it seems several people disagree with you. Of course no one can prevent you to think it is the secret, but where is the fun then?
I would be very interested to know when which part of Glorantha was developped.

 

[richaje]

To be honest, it is a waste of time looking through bits of Greg's scrap paper or 20+ year old publications to try to figure out the God Learner Secret. When Greg and I wrote the God Learner and Zistorite sections of "The Middle Sea Empire" (as an author's resource for Mongoose's writers) we talked about the Secret, their techniques and their own theological beliefs. Get a copy of MSE if you want to toy around with the Secret. Don't rely on a blurb or two in Wyrms Footprints or even older publications.

Jeff

 

[The King]

Yes, this is a possibility. Though I am not a collector, I bought several zines on Glorantha and though each of them was hightly interesting, it is a true chaos afterwards to sort out where I read a specific information about a specific subject.
I read the first four Works in progress but some were quite hard to follow (e.g. the entekosiad but the first part of The glorious reascent of Yelm could also be considered).
Well what is diffilcult in Glorantha is to make the difference between the game part and the more phylosophical and mythological (non gaming) part.

 

[frogspawner]

Well what is diffilcult in Glorantha is to make the difference between the game part and the more phylosophical and mythological (non gaming) part.

Yes, very difficult - especially with parts changing from one type to the other, as I believe has happened with the Secret. In RQ3 it was just a 'legend' to scare players out of bad role-playing, but in MRQ's 2nd Age setting the characters have to live with it now - so it has to be re-interpreted as a viable philosophy.

Since some people have great difficulty accepting the "it's a game" interpretation (see simonh's flames above) and writers/publishers want to sell more books by not offending them, I doubt we will get much in the way of sensible debate about this. (BTW, the RQ3 Glorantha book it is based on was published in 1988 - so only 19 years old. Luckily not yet 'waste of time/scrap/blurb' even by richaje's standards. I wonder how long his work is intended to last...).

Although I don't see why people should have trouble with the Three Word interpretation. Even in the real world, a "game player attitude" has long been seen as a way, albeit perhaps a cynical way, to succeed in life.

As to the practical effect on Godlearner Heroquesting techniques, previous RQ publications seemed to say they were the same as anyone elses, just done disrespectfully.

 

[Voriof]

Since some people have great difficulty accepting the "it's a game" interpretation (see simonh's flames above) and writers/publishers want to sell more books by not offending them, I doubt we will get much in the way of sensible debate about this. (BTW, the RQ3 Glorantha book it is based on was published in 1988 - so only 19 years old. Luckily not yet 'waste of time/scrap/blurb' even by richaje's standards. I wonder how long his work is intended to last...).

Man, you've really bought into this!

Greg's said repeatedly over the past fifteen years that that isn't and never was the God Learner secret. Folks who work with Greg on a regular basis (and Jeff has far more contact with Greg than I do, especially over these matters) have told you the story. It appears that no one can convince you of the error of your information - something that's happened several times before here.

But... hey... enjoy! YGMV :?

If you want to know what the GL Secret is, get Nick Brooke very, very drunk. He knows what it is but only when he's completely blotto. True story.

As to the practical effect on Godlearner Heroquesting techniques, previous RQ publications seemed to say they were the same as anyone elses, just done disrespectfully.

Partially. Yes. In one sense, the God Learners had no regard for the consequences and repercussions of their actions. Usually, Heroquests are done for a community. The God Learners performed them for personal gain and aggrandizement. Also, the God Learners were willing to use tools and equipment on these little jaunts that no right-thinking Quester would use. Enacting a Troll HeroQuest and bring a piece of the Sun with you to defeat the Dark Mother. Going off on a Heal-Heler quest and instead, bringing back one of Heler's Wounds - and using this continual flow of magic to power magical weapons. It is thought that the permanently empowered bladesharp swords employed by the clanking city drew their power from Heler. The windless Typhoons were one of the side effects of this.

Just sayin'

Jeff

P.S. You know that Jeff's the acknowledged Go-To guy for the God Learners and the Middle Sea Empire and most things God Learnerish for us HeroQuest writers, right?