About the God learner's secret...
- Thread starter The King
- Start date
frogspawner
Mongoose
Despite the title, this thread actually started out trying to discover any special techniques the God Learners used for HeroQuesting - which we had already found out by the bottom of page 4 (thanks to Voriof).
Actually, the latest theories are that there is more than one.
One of the biggies I have discussed with Greg is:
The godlearners started changing the cosmos so much that the cosmos decided to snap back to its original state and instantly (well, overnight) destroyed the godlearners in the process. Basically, the godlearners were like a computer virus. They messed with operating system of the cosmos so much that the computer owner just wiped the hard drive, reinstalled the original operating system, and rebooted. In doing so, the virus was eliminated, like it never existed.
Big lesson, don't mess with the cosmos. It isn't as "changeable" as some people thought, and had to learn the hard way.
PS: There's more being said on this over at the world of Glorantha yahoo group.
Hope that helps,
Rick
One of the biggies I have discussed with Greg is:
The godlearners started changing the cosmos so much that the cosmos decided to snap back to its original state and instantly (well, overnight) destroyed the godlearners in the process. Basically, the godlearners were like a computer virus. They messed with operating system of the cosmos so much that the computer owner just wiped the hard drive, reinstalled the original operating system, and rebooted. In doing so, the virus was eliminated, like it never existed.
Big lesson, don't mess with the cosmos. It isn't as "changeable" as some people thought, and had to learn the hard way.
PS: There's more being said on this over at the world of Glorantha yahoo group.
Hope that helps,
Rick
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes the secret is written page 13, but then how do one proceed? I don't speak in gaming terms
Or is it perhaps all the story about the "Secret". We know what is it but not how it is performed? And this has become the Secret.
Voriof told us some bits with the God learners taking a piece of the sun to fight the dark mother. But how did they proceed for, say the goddess switch and how could they (the goddess) be persuaded (or forced) into becoming such a new being of worship?
Or is it perhaps all the story about the "Secret". We know what is it but not how it is performed? And this has become the Secret.
Voriof told us some bits with the God learners taking a piece of the sun to fight the dark mother. But how did they proceed for, say the goddess switch and how could they (the goddess) be persuaded (or forced) into becoming such a new being of worship?
Pentallion
Mongoose
Well, Greg has said the answer to the GLS is in Glorantha 2 on page 18 so I'll be buying it just for that reason.
The secret is very important to me as a gamemaster because I always want my players in the heart of the story, not bystanders witnessing others grand events. my players are the deciding elements in the unfolding of all these events. Naturally I NEED to know what the Secret was that got the GL's destroyed because eventually, my players will be caught up in the middle of it and to even begin to plan such a campaign I'll need to know this ahead of time.
I'm still trying to work out if the God Learners destruction should be portrayed as a tragedy instead of being the evil bad guys getting their just rewards, Perhaps the Secret is something the world NEEDS to know, but the God Learners screwed it up because many of them were just plain greedy and so the God Learners Secret, which could have proved the salvation of man, is lost.
Perhaps Argrath finally learns this secret and that is how he sets free the world?
Veering slightly off topic: One thing that has just recently occured to me and if you'll read my post under the thread "Spells" you'll see my outlook on how Runes interact with the real world and create magic and you'll see I postulate that all three classes of magic, sorcery, spirit and divine, approach how to access Runes and use them from different angles, but ultimately, all magic comes down to knowing the Runes. So a sorceror teaches himself Rune knowledge. A theist gets powers from Runes from his God. If he attains Rune Lord status, he KNOWS the Rune himself and no longer needs its powers granted to him from his God, he can initiate those powers himself, thus the spells become reusable to a Priest/Rune Lord. A shaman finds a spirit that knows the Runes and gets that spirit to cast the spells.
Well, what occured to me is that Arkat and the first cycle of destruction occured because Arkat went the Theist route to exploiting Rune knowledge, he went from cult to cult, gaining Rune Lord status and as soon as he had that cults Rune knowledge for himself and no longer needed the cults God, he jumped to another cult. what he knew was that once the God had given him the knowledge, it was his to keep. He learned the Runes for himself. What the God Learners did was to steal these secrets from the Gods. This was the second cycle of destruction. 'They took the sorcerors route to exploiting Rune knowledge. In the 3rd Age, Argrath completed the third cycle of destruction. Was it someone(s) taking the spirit magic route to exploiting Rune knowledge that caused the Great Illiteracy? There's a certain symmetry there when you think about it. We know what happened at the end and how the Trickster was fundamental in betraying the Gods and changing the world. It seems on the surface to have been one more instance of God Learnerish disrespect for the nature of HeroQuesting. It seems on the surface to be very theistically driven. Yet I can't help wondering if a spirit magic route to exploiting Rune knowledge couldn't somehow be used to explain the repurcussions, if only to lend that symmetry to the whole history?
In any event, after the 2nd age, the rules changed. After the 3rd age the world changed, it became more 'earthlike'. Perhaps this is all part of the Grand Design. To understand if that is so, one would HAVE to know what the God Learners Secret is, just to be sure the announcement of the secret wouldn't render such a Grand Design theory impractical or screw up any other possible explorations a gamemaster might want to make into the nature of magic, the magic of nature (in Glorantha) and all points in between..
The secret is very important to me as a gamemaster because I always want my players in the heart of the story, not bystanders witnessing others grand events. my players are the deciding elements in the unfolding of all these events. Naturally I NEED to know what the Secret was that got the GL's destroyed because eventually, my players will be caught up in the middle of it and to even begin to plan such a campaign I'll need to know this ahead of time.
I'm still trying to work out if the God Learners destruction should be portrayed as a tragedy instead of being the evil bad guys getting their just rewards, Perhaps the Secret is something the world NEEDS to know, but the God Learners screwed it up because many of them were just plain greedy and so the God Learners Secret, which could have proved the salvation of man, is lost.
Perhaps Argrath finally learns this secret and that is how he sets free the world?
Veering slightly off topic: One thing that has just recently occured to me and if you'll read my post under the thread "Spells" you'll see my outlook on how Runes interact with the real world and create magic and you'll see I postulate that all three classes of magic, sorcery, spirit and divine, approach how to access Runes and use them from different angles, but ultimately, all magic comes down to knowing the Runes. So a sorceror teaches himself Rune knowledge. A theist gets powers from Runes from his God. If he attains Rune Lord status, he KNOWS the Rune himself and no longer needs its powers granted to him from his God, he can initiate those powers himself, thus the spells become reusable to a Priest/Rune Lord. A shaman finds a spirit that knows the Runes and gets that spirit to cast the spells.
Well, what occured to me is that Arkat and the first cycle of destruction occured because Arkat went the Theist route to exploiting Rune knowledge, he went from cult to cult, gaining Rune Lord status and as soon as he had that cults Rune knowledge for himself and no longer needed the cults God, he jumped to another cult. what he knew was that once the God had given him the knowledge, it was his to keep. He learned the Runes for himself. What the God Learners did was to steal these secrets from the Gods. This was the second cycle of destruction. 'They took the sorcerors route to exploiting Rune knowledge. In the 3rd Age, Argrath completed the third cycle of destruction. Was it someone(s) taking the spirit magic route to exploiting Rune knowledge that caused the Great Illiteracy? There's a certain symmetry there when you think about it. We know what happened at the end and how the Trickster was fundamental in betraying the Gods and changing the world. It seems on the surface to have been one more instance of God Learnerish disrespect for the nature of HeroQuesting. It seems on the surface to be very theistically driven. Yet I can't help wondering if a spirit magic route to exploiting Rune knowledge couldn't somehow be used to explain the repurcussions, if only to lend that symmetry to the whole history?
In any event, after the 2nd age, the rules changed. After the 3rd age the world changed, it became more 'earthlike'. Perhaps this is all part of the Grand Design. To understand if that is so, one would HAVE to know what the God Learners Secret is, just to be sure the announcement of the secret wouldn't render such a Grand Design theory impractical or screw up any other possible explorations a gamemaster might want to make into the nature of magic, the magic of nature (in Glorantha) and all points in between..
Pentallion said:
I hate to be the voice of authoritative negativity, but Argrath does not learn the God Learners Secret (and for what it is worth, I was Greg's main collaborator on Middle Sea Empire and am working with Greg on the Grand Argrath Saga, so I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about).
However, the questions and ideas you raise are very interesting - any interest in posting them on the World of Glorantha Digest?
Jeff
Dr_Snugglebunny
Mongoose
this does raise the question though of whether anyone can learn the GL secret in the Third Age and live, as supposedly the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods got rid of "everyone" who knew it/might know it-- are they still watching, or are they inactive?
Dr_Snugglebunny said:
I suspect the secret no longer exists or is now more impossible than it was before. The loophole, as it were, closed when Glorantha reasserted itself against the God Learners.
Argrath takes advantage of the Lightbringer's Quest and rediscovers some EWF draconic items and cuts several deals with draconic forces (one of which can be read in "Gathering Thunder")
Jeff
Pentallion
Mongoose
richaje said:
I wasn't making guesses about what is official canon, I was thinking from the perspective of a gamemaster as to what MY plot for a campaign might be. I wasn't aware that there was going to be a Grand Argrath Saga so I didn't consider having contradictory information come from THAT direction.
Trifletraxor
Mongoose
Pentallion said:
What book are you refering to? The Glorantha - 2nd Age book by Mongoose or something Issaires will publish? In the MRQ book there is a short mention of RuneQuest Sight being the God Learner secret on page 13, but nothing on page 18.
SGL.
Edit: typo.
Hi there,
This is very interesting! I just got my players into some ruins in the Zola Fel Valley (in 1619 ST) where they found some God Learner artifacts (though they don't know these were made by the GL), and one artifact was one of these swords. The player who got the sword is very happy with it (for now), but... what can happen to him? What are the implications of brandishing a GL sword and not knowing it?
I was also wondering, when/if he eventually finds someone who recognizes the sword and tells him to destroy it or get rid of it, how can I avoid a "so what" response from the player???
Many thanks in advance to anyone who kindly replies!
R.
This is very interesting! I just got my players into some ruins in the Zola Fel Valley (in 1619 ST) where they found some God Learner artifacts (though they don't know these were made by the GL), and one artifact was one of these swords. The player who got the sword is very happy with it (for now), but... what can happen to him? What are the implications of brandishing a GL sword and not knowing it?
I was also wondering, when/if he eventually finds someone who recognizes the sword and tells him to destroy it or get rid of it, how can I avoid a "so what" response from the player???
Many thanks in advance to anyone who kindly replies!
R.
In my opinion (and you know what people say about opinions) the secret of the God Learners is exceedingly simple.
It's not what they do in the Hero plane that is so unusual. There is an article online by Greg (I think) about how it is perfectly acceptable to change myth and hence change the world.
What is not acceptable is to do that without piety, respect and humility (as someone mentioned above). To most Gloranthans, it would be anathema. For example, imagine suggesting to a devout Orlanthi priest that all he needs to do to gain X power is to emulate Zorak Zoran, or worse, Yelmalio.
I think that the reason Gloranthans refer to a secret is because they were unable to understand that the GLs were just heroquesting as the Gloranthans could, using means they (the Gloranthans) would never use.
Since the GLs were obviously succeeding (gaining secular and spiritual power), there had to have been something. That something, or rather that need to explain GL succeess as something is what led to the concept of the Secret.
At least, that's how it works in my Glorantha.
It's not what they do in the Hero plane that is so unusual. There is an article online by Greg (I think) about how it is perfectly acceptable to change myth and hence change the world.
What is not acceptable is to do that without piety, respect and humility (as someone mentioned above). To most Gloranthans, it would be anathema. For example, imagine suggesting to a devout Orlanthi priest that all he needs to do to gain X power is to emulate Zorak Zoran, or worse, Yelmalio.
I think that the reason Gloranthans refer to a secret is because they were unable to understand that the GLs were just heroquesting as the Gloranthans could, using means they (the Gloranthans) would never use.
Since the GLs were obviously succeeding (gaining secular and spiritual power), there had to have been something. That something, or rather that need to explain GL succeess as something is what led to the concept of the Secret.
At least, that's how it works in my Glorantha.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Indeed it is an interesting opinion. The God Learners stole other's myths because they considered nothing is sacred.
Nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred anymore.
I've seen it all.
I've seen it all before.
It's such a bore.
You sell your souls like a whores.
You've killed, free will.
Free Me, of responsability.
You hope, you pray,
you'll be the one who's saved.
But nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred anymore.
I've asked you all.
I've begged you all before.
Give in to evolution,
but you'd rather buy absolution.
You've killed, free will.
Free Me, of responsability.
You hope, you pray,
you'll be the one who's saved.
But nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred, anymore.
[Mankind:]
There's no salvation.
there's no truth.
We are your retribution.
We are the brutal youth.
We are the future.
We are the past.
We are your guilt trip.
And we are you class.
But nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred, anymore.
[London After Midnight]
Nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred anymore.
I've seen it all.
I've seen it all before.
It's such a bore.
You sell your souls like a whores.
You've killed, free will.
Free Me, of responsability.
You hope, you pray,
you'll be the one who's saved.
But nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred anymore.
I've asked you all.
I've begged you all before.
Give in to evolution,
but you'd rather buy absolution.
You've killed, free will.
Free Me, of responsability.
You hope, you pray,
you'll be the one who's saved.
But nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred, anymore.
[Mankind:]
There's no salvation.
there's no truth.
We are your retribution.
We are the brutal youth.
We are the future.
We are the past.
We are your guilt trip.
And we are you class.
But nothing's sacred.
Nothing's pure.
Nothing's sacred, anymore.
Forget salvation.
Forget the cure
'cause nothing's sacred, anymore.
[London After Midnight]
Cleombrotus
Mongoose
I really like this version. I think that it captures the scope of Gloranthan history and hints at exactly how much was lost in the cataclysmic end to the Second Age.
In the Third Age scholars have a knowledge of history, but because so much was destroyed of the Godlearner Empire, it figures that the Godlearners themselves would have almost mythical status and that ignorance of the truth would give rise to the concept of a "Secret". When you play a game set in the Second Age, this "Secret" is hidden in plain view.
From my own point of view I have to admit to sympathy with the postmodern explanation, in spite of the slagging it's taken in this thread. I always equated the Godlearners with a symbol of Glorantha's existence as an entity outside of the human beings who created it and those who alter it i.e us. Glorantha re-asserting its own reality is simply an allegory for the idea that she/it is above such tampering. Of course such an explanation is ultimately meaningless, but then I've always thought of Glorantha as being as valid a philosophical construct/intellectual exercise as much as a roleplaying world. However, there's only so far you can go on this subject without disappearing up your own arse...
Cleombrotus said:
Yes and yes. IMHO, even 2nd age gloranthans would be looking at the GLs with the belief the GLs were in posession of some secret magic. There is also the idea that the attempt to uncover and destroy said secret could lead players to actually using GL methods (unknowingly, or course).
Players tend to love anything that gives them more power. Even if it will destroy their character, or their character's world. Hmmm... remind you of anyone?
Cleombrotus said:
There is a fine line between earnest discussion and out-and-out geekiness. Or so I have heard. I crossed that line long ago and am accelerating. :twisted:
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