About the God learner's secret...

[The King]

Could possibly the God Learners have involved time in the heroquests? Let's say they found a possibility to warp time to suit their needs and act thus in the quests as they wish, appropriating the powers and artefacts of the gods and acting thus (while on a heroquest) as if time didn't exist, that is without begining nor end, and having thus a critical advantage on everyone else, gods included, who has to follow the flow of time.

I mean this: the end of the 1st age was provoked by the fall of Nysalor and the mighty war to stop him. But though he was a god and however powerful Nysalor/Gbaji might have been, only the mortals (especially trolls) did fight him, with some attaining a godly essence (Arkat).

On the other side, God learner's were just mortal beings (not as powerful as a god who has cursed the troll race) but their destruction was only possible due to the intervention of the gods who eradicated any and all spurs of the god learner's. Creating such a consensus of all the gods against them, this means thus that the gods feared that the "Arachne Solara Agreement" would just become void (pun intended) bringing an end to Time and retriggering the god war.

What is your opinion on this?

 

[frogspawner]

Theories abound. My favourite is the Three Word One, which was stated in the recently-demised "Fan Opinions" thread, expunged by our very own Gift Carrier of the Sending Gods, Mr Sprange.

It's a game.

 

[simonh]

Heroquests do occur outside of normal time anyway, because they embody timeless qualities, truths and values, and this was true both before and after the Godlearners.

 

[The King]

Yes because time doesn't flow the same way in these planes.

No because once you perform a station you follow the flow of time and go the to next (or another). I suspect the god learners could avoid being imprisoned in this flow and once they found a flaw in their opponents, they used it over and over again and would thus always succeed in the same quest (which isn't usually the case because of several factors).

With all the power they gathered through the age though, they still were blind because enable to forsee their own doom.

 

[The King]

Theories abound. My favourite is the Three Word One, which was stated in the recently-demised "Fan Opinions" thread, expunged by our very own Gift Carrier of the Sending Gods, Mr Sprange.

It's a game.

I didn't read the thread unfortunately. What is so offending that it had to be deleted?
And what is this favourite theory of yours?

 

[frogspawner]

Sadly, I don't think it was mention of The Secret that got the Fan Opinions thread deleted. That thread was just a Mongoose-guy griping about whingeing Gloranthaphiles, an invitation for more such griping - I guess Mr Sprange thought this would not be helpful! The Secret was only mentioned in passing, when someone coincidentally used the phrase "it's only a game" (which is 4 words, but close enough).

The "It's a game" theory is not (just) mine. I'm glad to see others have come to the same conclusion, independently. (There are other threads hereabouts that have gone into it in detail - try the Search facility above, or even Google).

But it's not just a joke, as some seem to think. It's a game-mechanism that prevents powergaming. Pre-Mongoose RQ lacked a way to reward good, and punish bad, role-playing - so it needed such a thing. MRQ fixes that problem though (adequately, if not elegantly) - hurrah for Mongoose!

However, the problem you're trying to solve remains - What can 2nd Age characters who are supposed to know The Secret think that it is?
I am very sympathetic - Good Luck!

But personally I think it's insoluble (unless you want to have powergamers run all God Learners in your campaign) and 2nd Age Glorantha is largely unplayable (by proper roleplayers). By renting them the 2nd Age, Mr Stafford is just having a big joke at Mongoose's expense...

 

[gamesmeister]

But personally I think it's insoluble (unless you want to have powergamers run all God Learners in your campaign) and 2nd Age Glorantha is largely unplayable (by proper roleplayers). By renting them the 2nd Age, Mr Stafford is just having a big joke at Mongoose's expense...

Out of curiousity, what's a "proper roleplayer"? Anyway, no offence, but what you've said here is bollocks. :roll:

• Surely "proper roleplayers" can handle a setting that gives them more power than their opponents. Melniboneans and Pan Tang sorcerers from Elric spring to mind...
• God Learner sorcery has the edge over other magic systems. That doesn't mean every God Learner is a walking killing machine - there are plenty of opponents out there more powerful than your average God Learner.
• There's an awful lot more to the 2nd age than the God Learners

 

[frogspawner]

Haven't you encountered any powergamers, gamesmeister? I have. If you don't know what one is, maybe you are one... "No offence". :wink:

Proper roleplayers are those of us who can play a role, and not just see their character as a sheet of paper on which to accumulate the biggest numbers they can.

a & b: Sure, good roleplayers can handle any setting, any power imbalance. But how can they handle a situation where their character knows it does not really exist?

c: "2nd Age is largely unplayable" because the God Learners are a large part of the 2nd Age.

 

[The King]

The "It's a game" theory is not (just) mine. I'm glad to see others have come to the same conclusion, independently. (There are other threads hereabouts that have gone into it in detail - try the Search facility above, or even Google).

But it's not just a joke, as some seem to think. It's a game-mechanism that prevents powergaming. Pre-Mongoose RQ lacked a way to reward good, and punish bad, role-playing - so it needed such a thing. MRQ fixes that problem though (adequately, if not elegantly) - hurrah for Mongoose!

However, the problem you're trying to solve remains - What can 2nd Age characters who are supposed to know The Secret think that it is?
I am very sympathetic - Good Luck!

But personally I think it's insoluble (unless you want to have powergamers run all God Learners in your campaign) and 2nd Age Glorantha is largely unplayable (by proper roleplayers). By renting them the 2nd Age, Mr Stafford is just having a big joke at Mongoose's expense...

I just think that MRQ is suited for any group fighting the god learners, much like the opposition between Lunars and Sartarites in RQ3. Remember that this version is depicting the end of the 2nd age. God learners should be mighty but there should be precursory signs showing that doom in pending.

As to the "it's a game" theory, I don't think so because Glorantha is highly phylosophical if you consider it with all the mythology involved. I consider this setting (whatever the system it plays with) by far the most serious game which also implies adult involvement and thinking (beside the gaming properly) just because myths are at the source of all civilization, heroquesting or not. And it is a chance that we can play this intelligently with an RPG.
Thus I would say It's a game but there is also more to this that the mere appearance of a game (after all the litterature sources of Greg Stafford have more weighs than many other RPG setting, say any AD&D setting).

 

[gamesmeister]

Haven't you encountered any powergamers, gamesmeister? I have. If you don't know what one is, maybe you are one... "No offence". :wink:

Not me. As long as I've got my lump of Truestone and my Iron Bastard Sword of Doom I'm happy...

Proper roleplayers are those of us who can play a role, and not just see their character as a sheet of paper on which to accumulate the biggest numbers they can.

Agreed, but it's not just black and white - there are many shades of grey in between

a & b: Sure, good roleplayers can handle any setting, any power imbalance. But how can they handle a situation where their character knows it does not really exist?

Does every God Learner know the truth? And of course you are making assumptions about what the secret is anyway.

c: "2nd Age is largely unplayable" because the God Learners are a large part of the 2nd Age.

Perhaps it's a question of semantics, but to me "largely unplayable" suggests that most of the 2nd Age is unusable. Perhaps that's not what you meant, in which case my mistake. However, regardless, not every God Learner is omniscient in the way you are suggesting they are...there's still endless scope for roleplaying even with the God Learners, let alone the rest of the world.

 

[richaje]

Sadly, I don't think it was mention of The Secret that got the Fan Opinions thread deleted. That thread was just a Mongoose-guy griping about whingeing Gloranthaphiles, an invitation for more such griping - I guess Mr Sprange thought this would not be helpful! The Secret was only mentioned in passing, when someone coincidentally used the phrase "it's only a game" (which is 4 words, but close enough).

The "It's a game" theory is not (just) mine. I'm glad to see others have come to the same conclusion, independently. (There are other threads hereabouts that have gone into it in detail - try the Search facility above, or even Google).

Fwiw, Greg Stafford and I do not hold to the "It is a game" theory. I really recommend folk read "The Middle Sea Empire" to get the background on the God Learners.

And fwiw, the God Learners are not power gamers - they are rules lawyers. And Glorantha herself is about to change her rules!

Jeff

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

And fwiw, the God Learners are not power gamers - they are rules lawyers.

There's no reason why they can't be both

Mark Mohrfield

 

[frogspawner]

Fair enough. I guess 2nd Age is not unplayable after all, it's just up to us to work out how to play it.

Limiting knowledge of The Secret (whatever we assume it to be) to upper-echelons of the God Learners is one way (gamesmeister) and/or having them as "the enemy" rather like Lunars usually are in 3A (The King) is another - either way NPC-only. (Another possibility, which struck me after I'd foolishly asserted 2A (largely) "unplayable", would be to play it like The Matrix... 8) )

It'd be most helpful, though, if people who profess to know The Secret would just tell us (thus answering the basic question of this thread), preferably in three words or so.

PS: Isn't powergamer just a sub-class of rules-lawyer? The difference being the powergamer over-steps considerations of character. Essentially the same crime that brought doom upon the God Learners...

 

[richaje]

Fair enough. I guess 2nd Age is not unplayable after all, it's just up to us to work out how to play it.

Limiting knowledge of The Secret (whatever we assume it to be) to upper-echelons of the God Learners is one way (gamesmeister) and/or having them as "the enemy" rather like Lunars usually are in 3A (The King) is another - either way NPC-only. (Another possibility, which struck me after I'd foolishly asserted 2A (largely) "unplayable", would be to play it like The Matrix... 8) )

OK, most powerful and important God Learners should be scholars, monks (and not in the AD&D mold), clerics and literate investigators - not kick-ass adventurers. They possess a remarkable understanding of the magical rules of Glorantha (until those rules start changing - which has already begun) and can manipulate those rules to wrest powers from the Otherworld - but remember they belong to a culture and a society.

The Middle Sea Empire formed the "God Learners Collective" out of dozens of heroic orders, wizards, clerics of several types and formerly independent explorers. The God Learners are overseen by the Lord High Sorcerer - and their religious orthodox is overseen by the Lord High Ecclesiarch. Additionally, most God Learners belong to sorcerous or monastic orders (which have their own hierarchies and rules). In short. a powerful God Learner may believe that his own rivals within the Middle Sea Empire are far more significant than any heathen opponent.

More over, as events in the coming years will prove, the God Learners have made some important mistakes and miscalculations. When the Great Gods themselves begin to manifest, extremely bad things happen for the God Learners. And when the Closing happens, the Middle Sea Empire is royally screwed. And who knows, maybe folk - maybe important folk - start blaming your group of powergamers for screwing up the world.

It'd be most helpful, though, if people who profess to know The Secret would just tell us (thus answering the basic question of this thread), preferably in three words or so.

Not going to happen.

Jeff

 

[simonh]

The "It's a game" theory is not (just) mine. I'm glad to see others have come to the same conclusion, independently. (There are other threads hereabouts that have gone into it in detail - try the Search facility above, or even Google).

But it's not just a joke, as some seem to think. It's a game-mechanism that prevents powergaming. Pre-Mongoose RQ lacked a way to reward good, and punish bad, role-playing - so it needed such a thing. MRQ fixes that problem though (adequately, if not elegantly) - hurrah for Mongoose!

Only two flaws in this theory:

1) Greg was talking about the Secret of the Godlearners before Glorantha becoming a setting for a roleplaying game.

2) Greg has expressly denied that this is the secret, and several other people I know who also know some, and perhaps all of the Godlearner secrets corroborate this.

 

[The King]

Fair enough. I guess 2nd Age is not unplayable after all, it's just up to us to work out how to play it.

Limiting knowledge of The Secret (whatever we assume it to be) to upper-echelons of the God Learners is one way (gamesmeister) and/or having them as "the enemy" rather like Lunars usually are in 3A (The King) is another - either way NPC-only. (Another possibility, which struck me after I'd foolishly asserted 2A (largely) "unplayable", would be to play it like The Matrix... 8) )

OK, most powerful and important God Learners should be scholars, monks (and not in the AD&D mold), clerics and literate investigators - not kick-ass adventurers. They possess a remarkable understanding of the magical rules of Glorantha (until those rules start changing - which has already begun) and can manipulate those rules to wrest powers from the Otherworld - but remember they belong to a culture and a society.
Jeff

You are thus telling the god learners are something like scientists who would perfectly master fields like atomic and DNA manipulation until they can create what they want to help them. This is the law as we know it all.

But something, presumably a god or all gods, decided to change the rules as they were known, and all the knowledge the god learners had gathered was no more true. The known rules and laws changed and this spelled the domm of the gods learners, did it?

 

[Adept]

a & b: Sure, good roleplayers can handle any setting, any power imbalance. But how can they handle a situation where their character knows it does not really exist?

c: "2nd Age is largely unplayable" because the God Learners are a large part of the 2nd Age.

This is such ****ocks.

That is not the secret, but rather a lame joke. That sort of approach is immature at best, and should be left to people who can't handle fiction without the safety line of being constantly reminded of what is real and what is not.

From the perspective of the characters Glorantha is as real as this world is from ours. The RQ-3 introduction to Glorantha spells out that Glorantha is a self contained setting. That means that no Gloranthan phenomenan has the explanation of "it's just a game".

Grow up,

 

[frogspawner]

1) Greg was talking about the Secret of the Godlearners before Glorantha becoming a setting for a roleplaying game

Interesting. How do you know this to be true? (Even so, rephrasing it as "it's make believe" would cover the pre-rpg era just as well).

...****ocks... That is not the secret...lame...immature...Grow up

Well, thank you for your mature and reasoned contribution. :lol:

Look - this doesn't bother me much but, being attacked for just trying to help and answering The King's initial question ("What's your opinion?"), I feel obliged to defend myself. I base my (continuing) opinion on published Gloranthan references. (What somebody may claim they overheard someone else saying at a convention years ago doesn't come in to it!)

The RQ3 Glorantha Book (Stafford, Petersen & Dunn, Avalon Hill 1988, p24-25) says of the God Learners:
1) "[Their] unusual magical methods began with a novel way of looking at the world. The secret is dead with its initiates, but was evidently called the RuneQuest Sight. It apparently allowed initiates to see the world as a series of patterns, relationships, and repetitive reflections which could be organized according to the now famous Runes." or, put another way, they knew the RuneQuest rules (Initiate God Learner = Rules-Lawyer?).
2) "The detachment required by the most avid adherents of RuneQuest Sight blinded them to many of the realities of a compassionate and created world. Their HeroQuesters lost touch with the basic rule of Arkat: 'No questing without respect and humility.' Rather than recognizing unique living entities they saw a thing of numbers, abilities, and potential - mere raw material. Many individuals with this blindness came to power early." or, they didn't care enough about character (Rune-level God Learner = Power Gamer?).
3) "The final result was catastrophe. The various kingdoms making up the Middle Sea Empire were each destroyed, by dooms similar only in their totality. ... Nature itself revolted against the God Learners in many places." or, they were erased by the world itself (The Creator = Author/GM?).
4) "Another terrible secret was avenged by doom guardians calling themselves the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods. Everyone who was privy to the Forbidden Secret, or who was kin to them, or who might have witnessed or heard about the secret, was hunted down and destroyed." or, any characters that act like the world isn't real can be blatted by the GM!

The RQ2 RuneQuest rulebook (Perrin, Stafford et al, Chaosium 1980, p54) says of the Illusion rune: "The Puppeteer Troupe, the major cult of the Father of Illusion, always claimed that this was the First Rune, for without Illusion, there would be none of us to think we ever were. They refuse to explain further." - perhaps the Gift Carriers didn't find them!

Phew - that was a lot of typing. See why I favour the "Three Word Answer" shorthand?

Hope this helps.

 

[Adept]

<snip>
Phew - that was a lot of typing. See why I favour the "Three Word Answer" shorthand?

Hope this helps.

Look. You obviously feel it's really clever and postmodern. Fine. Have things be like that in your game. Just stop trying to push your pet theory down everybody elses throat.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Can't really see how that RQ2/3 material is interpreted into "It's all a game". Can you explain the linking? :wink:

SGL.

EDIT: Typo.