frogspawner
Mongoose
Trifletraxor - thanks for intervening. I was about to rise to Adept's flame-bait, but it just ain't worth it. G'night!
About the God learner's secret...
- Thread starter The King
- Start date
Trifletraxor
Mongoose
G'night frogspawner! Now remember to eat only flies, no beetles! 
<ribbet!>
SGL.
<ribbet!>
SGL.
Trifletraxor said:
I really would not rely overmuch on RQ2/3 material to understand the God Learners. I worked with Greg on writing the Jrusteli background for the Second Age (most of which is in the Unfinished Work "The Middle Sea Empire") and we did not rely on or even reference the RQ2/3 material (beyond a few timeline issues). Greg has explored Glorantha a lot further and in a lot more depth since RQ2/3 and I would suggestion starting any discussion of the God Learner secret with "The Middle Sea Empire".
Jeff
frogspawner
Mongoose
I think the wink was the significant bit, so we'd better not risk misquoting, eh?Trifletraxor said:
So the Three Word Answer was The Secret but it's been 'Gregged', as they say. Fair enough. I can see why - there are lots of people out there who object really strongly to that much 'pulling back the veil' (see above!). Personally, I can live with it in 'my Glorantha' - but then I'm intending to stay safely in the 3rd Age...richaje said:
frogspawner said:
Because I asked him. Greg has been telling stories set in Glorantha and developing the setting since the 1960s, over a decade before it became a roleplaying game setting. A number of key articles in Wyrms Footnotes on the mythology of Glorantha date back to it's orrigin as a support magazine for the boardgames.
There's an amusing point on one of them where Greg says that a friend of his has written up Arduin Grimoire stats for some of the heroes in the White Bear & Red Moon board game (Jakaleel, Argrath, etc), and Greg says something along the lines that he's happy for someone else to do this, because he doesn't know much about roleplaying games and probably never will!
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
He did create King Arthur Pendragon which is quite impressive with its passions and traits and which is a great improvement in the way RPG are played.simonh said:
I admit though that I read an article where he stated we would be unable to create a system for heroquesting and was thus very pleased of what Robin Law had rendered with his Herowars.
In fact this system is probably the best when one consider the original gaming in Gorantha with "Red Moon / White Bear" (which became Dragon Pass) where you have heros among common folks.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Thank you for the quote which I knew but I couldn't remember every bits.frogspawner said:Phew - that was a lot of typing. See why I favour the "Three Word Answer" shorthand?
Hope this helps.
I wonder you why you come to the conclusion of the three word answer after reading this. It is implied that there is more to this.
Moreover, in many conventions (which I never attended but many of which are transcribed back in fanzines) it is clearly said that there is a secret or an ensemble of secrets which are more or less all linked togather.
About the god learners being powergamers, you are the GM and just consider what happened to them because they were too powerful in the way they were acting (i.e. profaning Glorantha).
God learners wanted to terraform physical and mystical Glorantha but as it's an entity it rebelled against her profanation, much like the earth which intrinsically react to misabuses.
As to the secret, I still maintain time (the so-called fourth dimension) is a vector of their might because gods can normally not act directly since the beginning of time.
And what about the unspoken word (of creation)?
frogspawner said:
Dude, I am sorry but the three word answer never was the God Learners' Secret. What I was getting at is the frustration that I (and others who write with Greg - including Greg) get when people ignore relatively new and comprehensive background materials - such as "The Middle Sea Empire" - and instead insist on citing blurbs that are 20 or 25 years old.
All I am trying to say, is if you want to understand the God Learners, you should start with "The Middle Sea Empire" and not old RQ2/3 snippets.
Jeff
richaje said:
Dude, you're not wrong. And you are in the best possible position to not be wrong.
It doesn't discount the original blasphemy, because that DOES make sense! As ever, Glorantha is as comlpex and as unknowable as anything man has come up with on our planet. And that's what makes Glorantha special.
The debates we have out of setting are nothing compared to the reality of what happens in setting.
And I love Glorantha for that.
- Q
Trifletraxor
Mongoose
Is there anyone who thinks that even Greg "knows" the god learner secret? Personally, I think it's more like illumination. A realization of sorts, not some secret that can be phrased in a few sentences. I don't really care either, as none of my players will ever know and I therefor have no problem with being ignorant.
SGL.
SGL.
frogspawner
Mongoose
Published material is the primary source, not Mr Stafford. He just isn't reliable...
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Anyway I still maintain that to undo things you have to make a compromise with Time. In the goddess switch you just can't say: "your goddess never existed, just take this one which suits us well."
The same applies to heroquest that don't belong to your belief. It seems weird to appropriate a myth and a god if this doesn't belong to your culture because there were enough posts on this forum stating that a worshiper of Yelmalio for example must accept to loose while heroquesting to reenact the adventure of his god. I don't believe the god learners ever accepted to loose at any station.
The same applies to heroquest that don't belong to your belief. It seems weird to appropriate a myth and a god if this doesn't belong to your culture because there were enough posts on this forum stating that a worshiper of Yelmalio for example must accept to loose while heroquesting to reenact the adventure of his god. I don't believe the god learners ever accepted to loose at any station.
Loz
Mongoose
The King said:
I kind of agree with you. I think, though, that God Learners would go into a Myth multiple times: once as a 'dry run' to see what happens and assess the risks, then again to test various theories, and yet again with definite agendas for myth re-engineering based on the previous outcomes. In this case, they might go in accepting to lose, but armed with all kinds of knowledge and sorcery to either mitigate the risks of loss, or ignore them altogether. That's where myths would then become vulnerable and, eventually, altered to produce something like The Goddess Switch.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
In King of Dragon Pass (the video game), we learn very well how a heroquest is performed. To succeed in any heroquest, Orlanthi must prepare all the conditions for it on the mortal plane:
- have sufficient magic
- have sufficient followers
- have excellent heroquesters
- know every part of the myth
- follow rigourously all the stations
- have the questers be a worshipper of the god concerned by the quest
For me, god learners just acted as if they were hacking the software to cheat and succeed in all the quests whatever the starting conditions because even if they fullfilled the first 4 conditions they still cheated god they didn't worship. Thus they must have performed things that weren't in the initial quest but were still able to go on to the "next station".
As an example, I would like to know how they would have performed the heroquest to free Heler, god of rain. I suppose they would have been more interested in the blue dragon Aroka so that he may work for them.[/b]
- have sufficient magic
- have sufficient followers
- have excellent heroquesters
- know every part of the myth
- follow rigourously all the stations
- have the questers be a worshipper of the god concerned by the quest
For me, god learners just acted as if they were hacking the software to cheat and succeed in all the quests whatever the starting conditions because even if they fullfilled the first 4 conditions they still cheated god they didn't worship. Thus they must have performed things that weren't in the initial quest but were still able to go on to the "next station".
As an example, I would like to know how they would have performed the heroquest to free Heler, god of rain. I suppose they would have been more interested in the blue dragon Aroka so that he may work for them.[/b]
frogspawner
Mongoose
What I have seen about Godlearner Heroquesting is a bit contradictory:
On one hand, it seems to say they would do exactly the same as other questers, but it was still 'wrong' because they did it without caring.
OTOH, switching goddesses and killing certain raccoons (permanently? in the God Plane??) is clearly not the same as everyone else. And certainly not "following rigourously" the path of the Quest.
It seems to me the GL's "game player attitude" (let's not get into whether that was 'true' or not) allowed them to fulfil the letter of the Quests, just like anybody else, but the accompanying lack of respect let them try again and again until they got the benefit - and sometimes led them to do something really outrageous (though I still can't see how the latter should be possible).
On one hand, it seems to say they would do exactly the same as other questers, but it was still 'wrong' because they did it without caring.
OTOH, switching goddesses and killing certain raccoons (permanently? in the God Plane??) is clearly not the same as everyone else. And certainly not "following rigourously" the path of the Quest.
It seems to me the GL's "game player attitude" (let's not get into whether that was 'true' or not) allowed them to fulfil the letter of the Quests, just like anybody else, but the accompanying lack of respect let them try again and again until they got the benefit - and sometimes led them to do something really outrageous (though I still can't see how the latter should be possible).
frogspawner said:
Another example of roleplayer snobbery, I see.
Some people like to play a character and push it to higher levels. That doesn't mean they aren't "proper roleplayers", they might play that particular character very well.
Some people like puzzle solving, other like detective games, others like combat, others like character interaction, others like collecting things, others like going out on a Monday night and having a good time with some friends.
All are valid ways of roleplaying. If people take a made-up character and play that character in a game, they are roleplayers. Full stop. No proper roleplaying involved, they are roleplayers. You either roleplay or you don't.
There is a hell of a lot of snobbery in roleplaying that I just do not like. Looking down on people who play AD&D, for instance, or being superior to munchkin players or whatever. If people enjoy what they do then let them do it without belittling them, no matter what style they play or how they choose to structure their games.
I know of people who immerse themselves completely in the game with no talk of other things, no rules discussions, keeoping entirely in first person character. Are they any more "proper roleplayers" than someone who turns up at 7.30, talks about what was on the telly last night, asks about your family, has something to eat then start gaming? Of course not, it's just a different way of playing.
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