A Minbari Fleet

[BenS]

So rather then go Brakiri I've been signed on to go Mimbari instead. Me being wise and smart and having a nasty vengeance streak and all.

I'll be getting the Fleet box and the Reinforcement Fleet box. Which comes to a total of:

1 Neshatan Gunship – War/Battle
3 Sharlin War Cruisers – War
4 Tinashi War Frigates – Battle/raid
2 Troligan Armoured Cruisers – Battle
1 Morshin carrier – Battle
2 Tigara Attack Cruisers – Raid
3 Leshath Heavy Scouts – Raid
6 Torotha Assault Frigates – Skirmish
12 Flights of Nials (3 figs per base) - Patrol/on ships
4 Flights of Mibari Fliers (3 figs per base) – Patrol/on ships

now to my understanding thats ALOT of models. I'll be making a list up later on. I think we're planning on playing a campaign where we choose a 10 point Battle list. But one thing I've noticed is that I'm getting a TONE of War/Battle ships. Far more in ratio then one would expect. I mean I have 8 points of battle ships already and 8 points of war (in battle level games) before we go into ANY of the small stuff.

So I was wondering if thats how its meant to be played. I'll have fewer ships but relatively stronger, faster and stealthier ones compared to my enemies. Or if I'm going to have to be very careful with my big babies and rely on my Raid and Skirmish level ships to form the bulk of the fleet.

I was also wondering which ships people fear most and what the main weaknesses and strengths of the Minbari are.

Ben

 

[Da Boss]

Sharlins are awesome - much better to have two of them that the Armg ship (and they have models!) The fleet list is top heavy - Minbari are.

It can be more cost efficient to get big ships once campign has started - given the odd points cost of reinforcements............

have fun

 

[Banichi]

The Minbari stealth is great, if your opponant doesn't counter it properly, (by using fighters with scanners to full, scouts, or getting within 10 inches) he or she will be pull out their hair because of the amount of shots that fail to lock on. Your beams are just about the best out there, not counting ancient weapons. They are precise, which means they do twice the number of critical hits as non precise weapons. Nial fighters are the best dogfighters in the game, as well as having a decent attack against capital ships.

Things are not all your way though. The minbos are a top heavy fleet, which means lots of high priority ships. This can make it a bit harder when you play low priority games. Also the hull rating on almost all the minbari ships, even the mighty sharlin is only 5. That means your blue beauties take more damage than most high priority ships if your opponant gets through your stealth. The Minbari are mean (I've never beaten them, but that might just be me :lol: ) but they are not invincable. Have fun.

 

[BenS]

hmm ok so for a 10 point battle list:

1 Point (1 Battle): Morshin Carrier (flagship) 1 Flyer Flight, 8 Nial Flights

2 Points (1 war): Sharlin Class War Cruiser 1 flyer Flight, 4 Nial Flights

1 Point (1 Battle): Tinashi Warship

1 Point (1 Battle): Tinashi Warship.

1 Point (2 Raid): 1 Esharan Anti-Fighter Frigate, 1 Leshath Heavy Scout 1 Nial Flight

1 Point ( 2 Raid): 2 Tigara Attack Cruisers

1 Point (1 Raid and 2 Skirmish): Esharan Anti-Fighter Frigate 2 Torotha Assault Frigates

1 Point (1 Raid and 2 Skirmish): Leshath Heavy Scout 1 Nial Flight 2 Torotha Assault Frigates

1 Point (1 Raid and 2 Skirmish): Leshath Heavy Scout 1 Nial Flight, 2 Torotha Assault Frigates


So in all thats 19 ships, with 17 fighter flights.

Idea being that the Morshin hangs back, I just need it for the Command-1 and extra fighters I'd otherwise be lacking.

The Tinashi's form my main battle ships I like the look of the models and they seem to be able to send out a decent amount of firepower while having nice speed and turns. The Sharlin forms my heavy hitter to go in and cause some nice destruction, probably protected by the Tigara's.

The Tigaras and Leshaths I plan to use their speed and maneuverability and stealthto outflank enemy fleets or get in behind the enemy line and rake their main ships from the aft while hitting them from the front with the Tinashi's and Sharlin. OR I'll use them to take out ships like the Sagittarius/Hermes other long-range missile/mine gunships.

The Esharans are in there to deal with enemy fighter swarms AND to help deal with pesky White Stars. I know they'll be one fleet of them in the campaign. Having two means the loss of one isn't totally devastating and allows me more non-dodge attacks on white stars.

The Torotha's just form some extra ships and also for their size pack a nasty punch so they'll probably also deal with ships of the same class or enemy support ships that remain at the back of the enemy fleet.

Fighters...I'll probably try to group them and use them to just hassle the enemy into submission, and to protect my ships from fighters as I don't have ant Anti-Fighter guns except on the Esharans.

Ben

 

[CZuschlag]

Reasonably thought out, but, unfortunately, there are two realities you're going to have to live with .... and two answers for those realities over the board.

Reality 1: The Torotha Sucks. Seriously. It's a lousy hull, even at Skirmish level. 6 of them is probably at least 2 too many. It's one of the rare circumstances where two Skirmish is decidedly less than one raid. Anything with a single interceptor eats them alive. They have to get FAR too close -- Range 6 -- to fire; the Stealth can't keep them alive.

Reality 2: The Esharan Sucks. Uh-oh, part two. The role and concept works, but the Shock Cannon's range is far too short. Against fighters, it's very useful, but you already have several Nials and a Morshin to handle most of that question.

There are some alternatives, but they don't exactly fill all the holes you need:

Alternative 1: The Ashinta. Instead of being able to use Torothas as initiative sinks, you can simply move this ship. It's a rare thing for a Minbari; a ship that, for its priority level, is huge. I mean, really -- it's 38:42, Hull 5, Stealth 4. Takes a TON of firepower to kill. The problem, of course, is that the guns are pretty darn weak. Long-range, but it's a plinking machine. However, it takes a mountain of firepower to kill it. Most of that firepower vents into empty space.

Alternative 2: The Teshlan. If you want a flanker/slasher concept, this is your guy. The Teshlan plays Small Forward on your basketball team; quick, damaging, everything is driving to the hoop or a midrange J. Or, in this case, around the hoop -- speed 14's main problem is keeping this thing from overflying its targets. However, its extreme speed allows it sometime to escape doom by All Power to Engines past the enemy fleet; when doing this it reaching obscene top speeds like 21. It is moderately fragile; stealth is important to this ship.

I've never flown Minbari in a campaign, but I've flown with them in one-offs, and against them both Tourney and Campaign. Some basic thoughts:

-- The Veshatan and the Tinashi are your two best ships. The Veshatan is big, but only has 1/45; the Tinashi is small for a Battle-level ship but has 2/45s and big secondaries (the Fusions are twin-linked). I love these two ships to death. A third nominee is to take frickin' huge forward guns and 1/45 and be relatively small --- that's the Shantavi, a ship to be taken with caution and dealt with in similar caution.

-- Leshaths die easy, and you need them. Be careful where they go. They are scouts first and warships second. Not the other way 'round.

-- You can make significant use of Close Blast Doors with some ships, remember that. Tigaras and Teshlans can make the most of it; the Tigara particularly on the approach turn. Not so much with the Tinashi hulls or the Morshin.

-- The new Troligan is cheese. Only use it if you like to win on the board but lose in the alley after the game. Seriously, we know that one is busted, but the rest of the fleet is very fair.

-- Range is your friend. Don't give it up for nothing! You may want to spend an entire turn, once in a while, just extending the range back out to 20 or so, espeically if you won't eat much firepower in exchange.

-- Critical-trawling is a valid tactic.

-- Consider once in a while trying to get lucky and blasting small scouts. The beam, if you get past stealth, cores Patrol scouts out almost without question. The Fusions finish the job. It is very risky to do, however; you can't waste valuable firepower. Make sure any stealth he has is down to 3. If he's reduced one of your ship's stealth, that's a valid opportunity; if the scout dies, the stealth reduction dies immediately as well.

 

[Humbaba]

Hi and welcome to the Brotherhood of the Bone. I have a couple of quick notes to add to what people have mentioned above. The Minbari can be fun and effective to play, but you have some hurdles ahead of you. First is that the fleet list is decidedly top-heavy and it is a lot smaller then it looks.
At the Patrol priority level you have no good choices – you simply do not get enough per point, even races with weak dog-fighters will beat you with their fighter choices as they get many more flights to your 1 or 2.
At Skirmish level you have no good choices – the Torotha is too short ranged and fragile. Remember that your stealth drops by 1 at 8” range for a total of stealth 3+, meaning that you only avoid a lock 1/3 of the time. Prepare to parish even under the side guns of many opponents.
At Raid level you get good choices. The Teshlan is a ship I often build my fleets around – fast and long ranged, it can be an excellent flanker. It would really shine if your fleet had sufficient initiative sinks, but it does not. You will be out numbered the majority of the time. This means that your high initiative rating only buys you so much (unless you get the opportunity to start culling his little ships with your longer range). The Ashinta is tough for a Minbari ship at this level, but a bit under gunned. The Esharan is junk. Remember that your mini-beams are anti-fighter at range 4. You do not fear fighters in general – and the Esharan sacrifices a lot of firepower to extend range a few inches. Not worth it as a rule, but it is perhaps viable against the ISA, I have never tried it for this. Note that a quirk of the rules interpretation has mini-beams gaining anti-fighter against auxiliary craft only and not “ships” such as the ISA’s. The Leshath is your scout ship and is a worthwhile special use choice. The Tigara is junk (in my opinion) for the same reasons as the Torotha. Main weapon range 8”, and a heavy weapon range 4”? You are exceptionally fragile at these ranges. Also, the Tigara’s heavy weapons are not beam or mini-beam, which means they do not ignore interceptors. As the rest of your fleet does ignore them, your Tigaras will be trying to overwhelm interceptor defenses all by their lonesome.
Your Battle level choices and War level choices are all good (and the new Troligan really is cheese – which is too bad as you really could use good hull 6 options). The War level choices are thinner then they look as the Sharlin and its variants all fill the same role with only small differences.
The Armageddon level ship is not worth taking, but this is true of almost all of the Armageddon level choices.

One last thing, as you are often badly out initiative sinked, you should consider using your ships in squadrons at the beginning of many fights. Firing massive barrages before your opponent gets to respond can be quite effective, especially with your crit trawling ability. Also, prepare to be hated as you have stealth which generates a lot of frustration for your opponents (and you as well as you are made of cheesecloth behind that stealth – a point that is often forgotten by those that hate you…)

Also – HAVE FUN! That is what it is all about.

-Humbaba

 

[BenS]

Reasonably thought out, but, unfortunately, there are two realities you're going to have to live with .... and two answers for those realities over the board.

Reality 1: The Torotha Sucks. Seriously. It's a lousy hull, even at Skirmish level. 6 of them is probably at least 2 too many. It's one of the rare circumstances where two Skirmish is decidedly less than one raid. Anything with a single interceptor eats them alive. They have to get FAR too close -- Range 6 -- to fire; the Stealth can't keep them alive.

Alright so I'll take 2 out and put in another Raid choice

Reality 2: The Esharan Sucks. Uh-oh, part two. The role and concept works, but the Shock Cannon's range is far too short. Against fighters, it's very useful, but you already have several Nials and a Morshin to handle most of that question.

I have Nials thats about it to deal with White Stars and they have Anti-Fight guns so Fighter attacks on them is next to suicide. Yes the Esharan has very very low range 5" but how else do I deal with the White Stars Dodge 3+. Following your advice I'll get rid of one of them but with nothing else to break through White Star formations I'm a bit concerned about dropping both

There are some alternatives, but they don't exactly fill all the holes you need:

Alternative 1: The Ashinta. Instead of being able to use Torothas as initiative sinks, you can simply move this ship. It's a rare thing for a Minbari; a ship that, for its priority level, is huge. I mean, really -- it's 38:42, Hull 5, Stealth 4. Takes a TON of firepower to kill. The problem, of course, is that the guns are pretty darn weak. Long-range, but it's a plinking machine. However, it takes a mountain of firepower to kill it. Most of that firepower vents into empty space.

Alright well I may change one of the Esharans into an Ashinta then.

Alternative 2: The Teshlan. If you want a flanker/slasher concept, this is your guy. The Teshlan plays Small Forward on your basketball team; quick, damaging, everything is driving to the hoop or a midrange J. Or, in this case, around the hoop -- speed 14's main problem is keeping this thing from overflying its targets. However, its extreme speed allows it sometime to escape doom by All Power to Engines past the enemy fleet; when doing this it reaching obscene top speeds like 21. It is moderately fragile; stealth is important to this ship.

OK so I only have 2 Tigara-Class. Would you recommend chaning both into Teshlans? You are right in that I want the Tigaras to be my flankers and the Teshlans have a longer range and greater speed, perfect for the task.

I've never flown Minbari in a campaign, but I've flown with them in one-offs, and against them both Tourney and Campaign. Some basic thoughts:

-- The Veshatan and the Tinashi are your two best ships. The Veshatan is big, but only has 1/45; the Tinashi is small for a Battle-level ship but has 2/45s and big secondaries (the Fusions are twin-linked). I love these two ships to death. A third nominee is to take frickin' huge forward guns and 1/45 and be relatively small --- that's the Shantavi, a ship to be taken with caution and dealt with in similar caution.

hmm I'm not sure the Shantavi stats in my book are correct. It shows 2 Forward guns, Improved Neutron Laster and the Molecular Disruptor and a single Port side Fusion Cannon. Is there no Starbord or Aft guns?!

-- Leshaths die easy, and you need them. Be careful where they go. They are scouts first and warships second. Not the other way 'round.

Ok so you're saying 3 is probably too many? I'll see what I can do to change it around.

-- You can make significant use of Close Blast Doors with some ships, remember that. Tigaras and Teshlans can make the most of it; the Tigara particularly on the approach turn. Not so much with the Tinashi hulls or the Morshin.

Whats Close Blast Doors?

-- The new Troligan is cheese. Only use it if you like to win on the board but lose in the alley after the game. Seriously, we know that one is busted, but the rest of the fleet is very fair.

hahah so use it if I'm in a pickle but its not very gamey? I may use it anyway just to piss my opponents off =)

-- Range is your friend. Don't give it up for nothing! You may want to spend an entire turn, once in a while, just extending the range back out to 20 or so, espeically if you won't eat much firepower in exchange.

-- Critical-trawling is a valid tactic.

1st what Critical-Trawling? I'll take the range finders into review. Can you fire when you call All Stop? How does Driving through the enemy fleet guns blazing and then turning behind the enemy using superior speed and turns to get in behind the enemy? Dangerous?

-- Consider once in a while trying to get lucky and blasting small scouts. The beam, if you get past stealth, cores Patrol scouts out almost without question. The Fusions finish the job. It is very risky to do, however; you can't waste valuable firepower. Make sure any stealth he has is down to 3. If he's reduced one of your ship's stealth, that's a valid opportunity; if the scout dies, the stealth reduction dies immediately as well.

Well that was what I was planning for my small Skirmish level ships. Occupy the enemies attention and use my small little fellers to deal with enemy peskys.

 

[tneva82]

I have Nials thats about it to deal with White Stars and they have Anti-Fight guns so Fighter attacks on them is next to suicide.

White stars die nicely with attrition as well. As for AF vs nials...Nials move later than white stars. Those AF weapons are front only. Move behind him

Yes the Esharan has very very low range 5" but how else do I deal with the White Stars Dodge 3+.

White stars have nowadays dodge 4+. That helps Secondly: Throw lots of firepower. They die nicely when you keep tossing dices at them Dodge isn't same as invincibility.

Whats Close Blast Doors?

Special action that gives you 5+ save against damage(not crew). Automatic but had some side effects(can't recall what).

1st what Critical-Trawling?

I presume aiming to cause as much criticals as possible. White stars for example depends a lot on precise ability of its beam to do major damage...

I'll take the range finders into review. Can you fire when you call All Stop?

Yup.

How does Driving through the enemy fleet guns blazing and then turning behind the enemy using superior speed and turns to get in behind the enemy? Dangerous?

You sacrifice range(your best friend), get close(they get bonus against stealth, your protection) and give them time to come around anyway.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Whats Close Blast Doors?

Special action that gives you 5+ save against damage(not crew). Automatic but had some side effects(can't recall what).

.

one less turn and only allows you to fire one weapon

 

[CZuschlag]

I sense that you do not have Armageddon. Armageddon changed a lot of things for the Minbari:

Stealth change (shortened up): Any target within 8" of the firer has its stealth score considered to be reduced by 1. This is cumulative with scouts, racial bonuses, and Scanners to Full. Furthermore, auxiliary craft within very short range (2"?, base contact?) ignore stealth. You still get bonuses to stealth at long range.

The White Star's Dodge changed to 4+. It also lost precise on its Molecular Pulsars (a HUGE deal)

The Shantavi was indeed misprinted. All the guns are forward-facing. Very risky boat to fight against, and to select.

The "new Troligan" we spoke of is in Signs & Portents. The magazine, over the last calendar year, has had many changes, including an entirely new fleet. It's rapidly becoming required reading.

As to your individual points:

Critical-trawling is using spare beam systems for firing at ships that there is no way you're going to damage this turn. You aren't looking for damage, you're trying to get lucky and generate some really imparing critical.

3 Leshaths is fine; I wouldn't field them at the same time, but in a campaign, they could be very valuable.

Humbaba makes some extremely valid points about Tigaras and interceptors. I've seen them work; and I've seen them do nothing. With the Armageddon stealth change, it seems like more of the latter than the former, but that's just a personal anecdote and not hard evidence. If you select a Tigara, select at least 3 and go as a wave. I think that could work. Expect a LOT of blood if you do this, one way or the other.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Furthermore, auxiliary craft within very short range (2"?, base contact?) ignore stealth.

If you select a Tigara, select at least 3 and go as a wave. I think that could work. Expect a LOT of blood if you do this, one way or the other.

1" for auxiliary craft


the best use of a Tigara IMO is as a jump point arrival behind an enemy

 

[BenS]

I don't have Armageddon but I have borrowed it, its sitting next to me, I just haven't gone through it, I hadn't realized there was updated rules in it.

It's late here now but I'll take what you've all said into account and bring back a 2nd revised list tomorrow or so.

 

[Silvereye]

All of the advice above is good advice. I'll throw some rambling comments into the mix.

I'm still trying to find a use for a Torotha. And I have been trying for years. About the best use I have come up with is cheap Jump Points. And you get a better bang out of Tigaras.

Esharan's are very poor, Ashinta's are a far superior choice. They are best used as initiative sinks for your fleet as their Twin-Linked firepower means there is no point in CAFing. Fire them toward the end of your firing sequence to finish off wounded prey. I'd swap out all the Esharans for Ashintas. Ashintas also make good choices if you have to fight at Patrol or Skirmish levels. Against White Stars, the all round Twin-Linked goodness of Ashintas will benefit you more then the 5" guns on the Esharan, which the ISA should bre able to avoid.

Tigaras are difficult to make good use of as they need to be within 4" of their target to get the best out of them. They used to be very fine ships (Perhaps at one point being the best Raid choice in the game) but have slowly been whittled down to less and less useful. About the best return from these ships is to bring them from hyperspace (using a JP opened by a Torotha, their Advanced Jump Points mean they can pretty much ignore the Jump Point restrictions for firing and manoeuvreing) and abuse the enemy fleet. If you don't have hyperspace as an option, then hope there is terrain on the board as they need to close with the enemy. They are best used against opponents without interceptors, though en-masse they should be able to overwhelm most interceptor systems.

Teshalans are the smallest hull that mounts a Neutron Laser in the Minbari fleet. They are fast, and that speed should serve you well - use them as a flanking, diversionary or reserve unit.

As to numbers of Tigara/Teshlan, remember you can include more ships in your fleet roster than you acually have models for (so perhaps 2 or 3 Tigara and 3 Teshlans). You just cannot field more then you own in any single fight though.

Nials, you always seem to never have enough Nials. The Morshin is a great choice as its a Fleet Carrier and Carrier. At a Patrol point for a flight of Nials, they are just too expensive to replace. So, with some campagin RR, purchase another Morshin and use it's Carrier ability to regenerate Flyers and Nials. Don't take it into battle.

Auxillary Craft, Flyers are best used for attacking enemy ships (they have a higher Stealth rating) Nials are good alrounders and Tishats are the best dogfighters in the game (but they suck in an anti-ship role).

Sharlin, is probably the best (or definitely in everyones top 5) warship in the game. It also has the fear-factor of a well deserved reputation to go with it. It is designed to cut ships out of the enemies fleet one at a time. It is not designed to attack a swarm with a few dice here and there.

Neshatan is a bruiser of a ship. Best used against Narn (High Hull Vs e-mines) and Ancients who get bonuses to beat your Stealth. Its Fusion cannon really need to be Twin-Linked to make it a more general option when compared to a Sharlin though.

Tinashi, works like a smaller, faster Sharlin. Shantavi is a singleminded weapon. All its firepower is forward, but it has a hell of a lot of it, and its all powerful firepower. Ashintas make a good escort for one, allowing the Shantavi to pick and choose its targets without worrying about defending itself.

Minbari tactics tend to feature a slow crawl at your opponent. You need to maintain the range (to get the best out of your Stealth) - all your guns (except the Molecular stuff) is long ranged, and should outrange most of your opponents secondaries. If you find yourself getting to within 8-12" consider All Power to Engines and get behind him. Few races (the EA is an exception) mount much in the way of rear weaponry (or the Turreted Vree), and you should be able to out-turn your opponent to get your forward guns back into play first.

Also, Minbari are equipped as a race to target your opponents big ships first - the Neutron lasers being Super AP Double Damage and Precise (and hopefully CAFed) give you a good chance to do significant damage and score criticals on your target in the opening salvos. Your stealth should protect you from most of the return fire in the opening one or two turns. If you roll well your opponet could be coming at you very demorolised as a result of being a big ship down.

Finally, always go high (+3 to the roll) when rolling for battle priority level. Minbari work best at the Battle and War level engagements.

 

[locarno24]

Mimbari

This is a Mimbari

These are Minbari

I was also wondering which ships people fear most and what the main weaknesses and strengths of the Minbari are.

In two words, stealth and lasers.

Neutron lasers are one of the scariest weapons out there - forward arc, precise, and high powered. Add that to your long ranged secondary guns and your stealth systems (which improve at long range) and the Minbari fleet is king of the long ranged firefight.

You have one of the most cost-efficient carriers out there (the morshin) and some truly vicious heavy warships. You may struggle in small games, though due to the weak lighter ships.

 

[BenS]

cool thanks all.. I'm going to go through the books again that I have and a tonne of paper and figure it out.

Also tips on these races would be nice:

Earth Alliance - likely to be Crusade Era

Shadows - possibly with Drakh

White Stars

Centauri

League of Non-Aligned worlds (I think he'll be taking a mix)

Narn.

That covers every race doesn't it? =P