A Melting Pot of Tastes

[Supplement Four]

I saw Zingara as being a country closely ressembling Spain during the era of great naval exploration.

I think most would agree with that.

I saw Argos as being like Portugal of that time : both nations locked in battle to try and dominate the seas, neither one really gaining a significant advantage. Only in wikipedia it suggests that Argos is much more greek-related, as the ship of the Argonauts was called the "Argo".

I think Argos and Corinthia, both, are related in atmosphere to ancient Greece.

Gunderland, again referenced in Wikipedia, is either the Netherlands or perhaps has a link with the king of the Vandals, Gunther. Seeing as how Gundermen is an elite infantry armed with enormous piked and large shields, who fight in tight formations... I saw them as being more Spartha or Greek-like, personally.

I always see them as the ancient Germans. Weren't those people actually called "Gundermen" or something like that? Somehow related to the Gals? (or Gauls, if you prefer).

At the beginning of Gladiator, there's a huge fight. I could see that as a fight between Aquilonia and rebelling Gundermen.

Zamora is linked with the Romani people, and that really surprised me. With a city name like Shadizar, I had seen them with a bit of an arabic flair.

Zamora isn't a Hyborian nation, and it seems to be a mix of a lot of cultures, sitting, as it sits, on the border of the Hyborian nations and more Middle-Eastern flavor of The Great Desert and Turan. But, Zamora is also isolated by all those mountains (which may be the reason it's one of the ancient cultures that have survived).

Turan, though, it seems to me, is ancient Turkey.

Zamora, as I understand it, is what's left of a culture, the Zhemri, that stood back in time with Acheron.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Gunderland, I see as being a pastiche (These are just my thoughts, by the way, in case anyone is offended here...), of either lowland countries, who, in Medieval Europe were skilled at pike formations, and often hired out as mercenaries. Either that or the famous pike cantons of Switzerland. Yeah, thinking about it Gunderland has to be Switzerland doesnt it?

 

[Demetrio]

I'd tend more toward the Netherlands myself as they fielded pikemen also. In some ways the Swiss are a better fit, being notorious mercenaries, and as ruggedly independent as the Netherlanders. It's the Swiss democracy and fanaticism that makes me incline against them being the historical inspiration (though that doesn't mean it wasn't)

Just as an aside, the historic Picts were what might be called a late iron age culture, and Scotland was largely deforested well before their dominance.

Zamora, for some reason, has always seemed kind of like Palmyra to me, though I can't honestly think of a good reason why, beyond it being a kind of borderland state.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I'd tend more toward the Netherlands myself as they fielded pikemen also. In some ways the Swiss are a better fit, being notorious mercenaries, and as ruggedly independent as the Netherlanders. It's the Swiss democracy and fanaticism that makes me incline against them being the historical inspiration (though that doesn't mean it wasn't)

Just as an aside, the historic Picts were what might be called a late iron age culture, and Scotland was largely deforested well before their dominance.

Zamora, for some reason, has always seemed kind of like Palmyra to me, though I can't honestly think of a good reason why, beyond it being a kind of borderland state.

Yes, probably Dutch, or maybe a mix of several inspirations.

Picts are a difficult one. You have to rely a lot on secondary sources with those guys. Theyre certainly driven to areas in the Western Isles by a series of invasions, Roman, Viking, Saxon. That gives them a fairly long history, through possibly stone age culture, to Iron Age, certainly existing as a distinct cultural group long after deforestation. They had a fairly vigorous maritime culture, as well, in the Western Isles, Hebrides, etc., though their story is one of survival on the fringes. Echoes of their culture can be seen in Celtic knotwork, oral tradition, standing stones.

It is unknown what they called themselves, most of their cultural traditions being a mystery. I find this to be very similar to Howards version of Picts, a people living on the fringe, mysterious. Its interesting that Howards Picts eventually overran civilisation, a nice twist to history perhaps.

 

[VincentDarlage]

To say he wrote about 'Red Injuns' and called them 'Picts' cause it sounded all exotic, is to insult the guys intelligence.

Of course, we have Howard's letters to confirm this is exactly what happened. Howard wrote to Lovecraft, saying he wrote "a two-part serial: 'Beyond the Black River' - a frontier story... in the Conan story I've attempted a new style and setting entirely - abandoned the exotic settings of lost cities, decaying civilizations, golden domes, marble palaces, silk-clad dancing girls, etc., and thrown my story against a background of forests and rivers, log cabins, frontier outposts, buckskin-clad settlers and painted tribesmen."

Concerning "Beyond the Black River," Novalyne Price writes that "He was excited about it because it was about this country and it sold! He had a honing to write more about this country, not an ordinary cowboy yarn, or a wild west shoot'em up, though God knew this country was alive with yarns like that waiting to be written. But in his heart, he wanted to say more than that. He wanted to tell the simple story of this country and the hardships the settlers had suffered, pitted against a frightened, semi-barbaric people - the Indians..."

I could go on, as there is additional evidence, but I think the point is made. Robert E. Howard was clearly writing about the experiences of early settlers and putting it into the Hyborian age. Every single researcher I have ever read, including Rusty Burke, Mark Finn and Karl Edward Wagner, agrees on this point. Indeed, Wagner says, "...here the Picts are not Howard's usual portrayal of a mystic, dawn-age savage race, but are American Indians with axes..."

Mark Finn makes the case that the Black and Thunder Rivers are actually the Brazos and Trinity Rivers in Texas, and the story reflects battles between settlers and American Indians that Howard knew well. Indeed, Howard had written a letter to Lovecraft about the battles in the territory between those rivers.

Anyway, PrinceYrkoon, the case Flatscan is making is correct, and is the stance all REH scholars agree on. I cannot find one REH scholar who is in disagreement here.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

To VD

Yeah, well I dont think anyone was denying Howard taking inspiration from various sources and experiences to colour his stories. Id still like to be shown one instance in any Howard story where he specifically states, or even infers CULTURAL similarity to Amerind natives. It absolutely makes no sense to tack onto a fantasy version of the Eurasian continent, 'Wild West' cultures, expecially considering Howards extreme care to make the setting as internally consistent as he obviously did.

Howard 'experts'? Would you class Wagner as an expert on all things Howardian? I see, in the quote you used, some wishful thinking on Wagners part.

I understand that Howard would have used analogies, and, maybe even, stuck some good old irrational colour into some of these stories, filling in some gaps in his knowledge with inconsistent detail, (thats his 'pulp' aspect coming through). But making the assumption that Picts are a fantasy version of American Indians is just plain nonsense.

Find me something in any story mentioning Picts, (rather than the contents of a letter. We tend to forget that letters were the everyday communication mode at the time), any kind of Amerind analogy, and I'll respect Howards creation less.

Oh, by the way, I liked your Across Thunder River. Extrapolation is a neccessary tool. However, you could have left out any reference to Amerind cultures in your work and still been 100% totally faithful to the stories. Do you agree?

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Oh, also, one wonders, in the stories that Howard projected about Conan eventually leaving the Hyborian Kingdoms and travelling to the New World, just what cultures our barbarian would have encountered there, having already 'shot his bolt' as it were, by using American Indian culture in such a weird setting as his fantasy equivalent of the British Isles.

Maybe he would have encountered King Arthur, or some other, misplaced legend. I submit that Howards Picts were historic Picts with a bit of 'sheen' and colour from elsewhere. Thats what I said at the begining, and thats what Im saying now.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Find me something in any story mentioning Picts, (rather than the contents of a letter. We tend to forget that letters were the everyday communication mode at the time), any kind of Amerind analogy, and I'll respect Howards creation less.

Hmmm... how about the names? Schohira (Howard), vs Schoharie (NY county, mentioned also in Robert W. Chambers' American Indian stories). Oriskany for Oriskonie. Caughnawaga for Conawaga. Nearly all the Westermark names come from places where New York settlers fought the Iroquois. Name of the stories? Wolves Beyond the Border and Beyond the Thunder River. Both have Picts in them.

Also, in Wolves Beyond the Border, he calls the Hawk clan as Onayaga... guess what language that resembles?

How about The Black Stranger? When it didn't sell, he rewrote it as an American Indian story called "Swords of the Red Brotherhood." He didn't change the Picts at all, just dropped the Pict label and gave it an Indian label.

Oh, by the way, I liked your Across Thunder River. Extrapolation is a neccessary tool. However, you could have left out any reference to Amerind cultures in your work and still been 100% totally faithful to the stories. Do you agree?

No. I don't.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Oh, yes, I forgot this, 'The Picts were a white race...'. Doesnt that kill all counter argument? It should.

Of course a writer is going to recognise parallels between his fantasy creation and the world he lives in, I dont think any writer of value fails to understand the link between creation and reality. I just get a bit hacked off with the assumption that, just because Howard used real world situations, it must mean that Picts are really Indians. Its a bit of a non sequitur, and, actually, devalues Howards creative abilities.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Oh, yes, I forgot this, 'The Picts were a white race...'. Doesnt that kill all counter argument? It should.

Not at all. Just because he changes a few facts (such as putting them in the Hyborian age to begin with) doesn't change the simple truth (one he admits to in letters and to Ms. Price) that he based the Hyborian age Pictish culture on American Indians. Of course he put his own spin on it, but he did base the Hyborian age Picts on American Indians. The Picts aren't American Indians transplanted through time, just that their culture is based on American Indian culture. Hyborian age Picts are still descended from the Picts of Kull's time, and give rise to the Picts of a still later time, so RACIALLY they are not American Indians - but CULTURALLY they are...

I don't see how you can see around the evidence of his own claims. They may just be letters, but they do show his intentions.

Anyway, I have said what I have to say. I have laid out the evidence (names of the Westermark regions, the rewrite of The Black Stranger, the comments of REH himself on the matter, both in his own letters and those of Ms. Price, and the 100% agreement of REH scholars) that the Pictish Culture during the Hyborian age was based on American Indians, and you have not refuted any of it with proof to the contrary. You have not offered a single authority. You have not offered a single statement by REH or anyone who knew him.

You only offered one piece of "evidence" against the standard position: You maintain that Karl Edward Wagner doesn't qualify as a scholar. Well, that is one of many. Can you disqualify them all?

Until you have authoritative proof to contradict the evidence I have presented, I consider the matter closed.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Find me something in any story mentioning Picts, (rather than the contents of a letter. We tend to forget that letters were the everyday communication mode at the time), any kind of Amerind analogy, and I'll respect Howards creation less.

Hmmm... how about the names? Schohira (Howard), vs Schoharie (NY county, mentioned also in Robert W. Chambers' American Indian stories). Oriskany for Oriskonie. Caughnawaga for Conawaga. Nearly all the Westermark names come from places where New York settlers fought the Iroquois. Name of the stories? Wolves Beyond the Border and Beyond the Thunder River. Both have Picts in them.

How about The Black Stranger? When it didn't sell, he rewrote it as an American Indian story called "Swords of the Red Brotherhood." He didn't change the Picts at all, just dropped the Pict label and gave it an Indian label.

Oh, by the way, I liked your Across Thunder River. Extrapolation is a neccessary tool. However, you could have left out any reference to Amerind cultures in your work and still been 100% totally faithful to the stories. Do you agree?

No. I don't.

Well, I dont know why.

Your names cherry pick. Zogar Sag? Jhebbal Sag? It doesnt follow. And, so what, he wrote a story changing Picts to Indians? What does that say? That he recognised the analogy? So what?

Let me get this straight. You say that the Hyborian Kingdoms are analogous to European equivalents? Corinthia is a kind of Greece. Zingara is a fantasy Spain? Cimmeria is a fantasy version of Celts, (at least, according to Mongoose, not that I agree)? Aquilonia is Medieval France? Stygia, Egypt? Hykania, Scythia? But, what? Although the Picts are called Picts, and loosely occupy the same place on the map as historical Picts, if you superimpose a map of Europe over a map of Conans world, they arent Picts? Theyre North American Indians?! Ridiculous.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Find me something in any story mentioning Picts, any kind of Amerind analogy, and I'll respect Howards creation less.

What does that say? That he recognised the analogy? So what?

Ummm... you asked for "any kind of Amerind analogy" as if there were none - now you say he recognised the analogy?

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Oh, yes, I forgot this, 'The Picts were a white race...'. Doesnt that kill all counter argument? It should.

Not at all. Just because he changes a few facts (such as putting them in the Hyborian age to begin with) doesn't change the simple truth (one he admits to in letters and to Ms. Price) that he based the Hyborian age Pictish culture on American Indians. Of course he put his own spin on it, but he did base the Hyborian age Picts on American Indians. I don't see how you can see around the evidence of his own claims. They may just be letters, but they do show his intentions.

You say I ignore the evidence? Why then, did you ignore the quote about the Picts being white? That they were a devolved race from civilised origins? That they were less intelligent than Cimmerians? Does that sound like North American Indians?

 

[Strom]

Very interesting - and within the context of the discussion - blog by Al Harron on The Cimmerian:

http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=5008#more-5008

 

[VincentDarlage]

Very interesting - and within the context of the discussion - blog by Al Harron on The Cimmerian:

http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=5008#more-5008

Excellent find, Strom! Thank you for sharing that. It shows that by the use of American Indian names and NY counties that he is setting up a certain tone.

 

[VincentDarlage]

You say I ignore the evidence? Why then, did you ignore the quote about the Picts being white? That they were a devolved race from civilised origins? That they were less intelligent than Cimmerians? Does that sound like North American Indians?

I will repeat myself then, since you missed it: The Picts aren't American Indians transplanted through time, just that their culture is based on American Indian culture. Hyborian age Picts are still descended from the Picts of Kull's time, and give rise to the Picts of a still later time, so RACIALLY they are not American Indians - but CULTURALLY they are...

Now, for something new: The fact that they are white and not red does not discount anything, since the Picts are not racially American Indians. They are culturally American Indians in the Hyborian age.

So your "evidence" of white skin is really nothing of the kind and does not disprove the cultural basis of Hyborian age Picts, a basis Robert E. Howard says exists, that Ms. Price says existed, and all REH scholars says exists.

Again, please bring authoritative proof.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Find me something in any story mentioning Picts, any kind of Amerind analogy, and I'll respect Howards creation less.

What does that say? That he recognised the analogy? So what?

Ummm... you asked for "any kind of Amerind analogy" as if there were none - now you say he recognised the analogy?

I suppose I could say here that someone needs to reread what Ive said.

Im not denying that Howard used bits of experience and story to colour his writing. This is a crazy argument. I dont give a monkys that Howard used stories of North American settlers to pad out, and draw inspiration for, his Conan writing. I dont give a monkeys, equally, that he told his mate that he was all excted about his ability to make parallels to American culture at the time. That he was all thrilled at his worth. He wouldnt be human if he didnt draw inspiration from the things around him, you should know that.

You can colour Howards Picts in a cloth of Amerind culture if you like, you can exaggerate the 'frontier' feel if you want, even as Howard did himself at times in Beyond The Black River. But, BUT, there is no hint that the Picts of Howards stories are freakin' Indians. It makes absolutely no sense to assume that they are, considering their proximity to pseudo-European cultures, considering that there is not one little sniff of any kind of description of Amerind culture in any story involving Picts, considering that they are called Picts, considering, also, that they occupy a region similar to their real life counterparts.

I cant believe that you would draw such conclusions to the contrary, considering you must understand the process of creation. It amazes me.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

You say I ignore the evidence? Why then, did you ignore the quote about the Picts being white? That they were a devolved race from civilised origins? That they were less intelligent than Cimmerians? Does that sound like North American Indians?

I will repeat myself then, since you missed it: The Picts aren't American Indians transplanted through time, just that their culture is based on American Indian culture. Hyborian age Picts are still descended from the Picts of Kull's time, and give rise to the Picts of a still later time, so RACIALLY they are not American Indians - but CULTURALLY they are...

Now, for something new: The fact that they are white and not red does not discount anything, since the Picts are not racially American Indians. They are culturally American Indians in the Hyborian age.

So your "evidence" of white skin is really nothing of the kind and does not disprove the cultural basis of Hyborian age Picts, a basis Robert E. Howard says exists, that Ms. Price says existed, and all REH scholars says exists.

Again, please bring authoritative proof.

Hmm. Ok, NOW you say that the Picts arent American Indian at all! What exactly is the stance? You say I missed your point. No, I dont think I did. You now say that the Picts of Howards stories arent American Indians. Youre confusing me, because thats EXACTLY howe you portray them in Across Thunder River. You depict Picts as RACIALLY American Indian, not with merely a cultural similarity grafted on.

Are you saying that the Picts are descended from the time of Kull? (Fact). Are you sayig they are white? (Fact). Are you saying that they are culturally, American Indians (No reference in any story).

Dont put my use of the word evidence in inverted commas, to do so is fairly misleading. It was a quote, directly out of Howards story. The Picts were white. Fact. Now what we are getting to is that you say the Pictish culture is American Indian. Right, well, where does it give this indication anywhere in any story of Howards concerning Picts? Howard could have used the plight of the Thracians at the hands of the Macedonians as inspiration for his Pict stories, if he had have known about it, or he felt some knid of affinity with it. It wouldnt have made any difference whatsoever to the story. It doesnt matter what inspired him, he must have known that to paint his Picts as Indians would have seemed odd at the very least.

 

[VincentDarlage]

But, BUT, there is no hint that the Picts of Howards stories are freakin' Indians. It makes absolutely no sense to assume that they are, considering their proximity to pseudo-European cultures, considering that there is not one little sniff of any kind of description of Amerind culture in any story involving Picts, considering that they are called Picts, considering, also, that they occupy a region similar to their real life counterparts.

They also occupy a region similar to that of the Iroquois...

As for the sniff of description of American Indian culture, may I direct your attention to The Black Stranger: "They wore beaded buckskin loin-cloths, and an eagle's feather was thrust into each black mane." Also, "The remaining Pict, a chief by the scarlet tip of the eagle-feather, came savagely to the attack." Also, "If I read the prints of their moccasins right, they were Cormorants."

Did historic Celts wear eagle's feathers? The scarlet tip is an American Indian trait for at least one Indian tribe (I found that in a really old book of my father's when I was researching Across Thunder River). Did the historic Picts do a lot of drumming for communication (talking drums)? What about the moccasins? Did historic Picts wear moccasins?

There are other evidences, but, really, is it necessary? Did I provide the "whiff" of American Indian culture you were looking for?

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

But, BUT, there is no hint that the Picts of Howards stories are freakin' Indians. It makes absolutely no sense to assume that they are, considering their proximity to pseudo-European cultures, considering that there is not one little sniff of any kind of description of Amerind culture in any story involving Picts, considering that they are called Picts, considering, also, that they occupy a region similar to their real life counterparts.

They also occupy a region similar to that of the Iroquois...

As for the sniff of description of American Indian culture, may I direct your attention to The Black Stranger: "They wore beaded buckskin loin-cloths, and an eagle's feather was thrust into each black mane." Also, "The remaining Pict, a chief by the scarlet tip of the eagle-feather, came savagely to the attack." Also, "If I read the prints of their moccasins right, they were Cormorants."

Did historic Celts wear eagle's feathers? The scarlet tip is an American Indian trait for at least one Indian tribe (I found that in a really old book of my father's when I was researching Across Thunder River). Did the historic Picts do a lot of drumming for communication (talking drums)? What about the moccasins? Did historic Picts wear moccasins?

There are other evidences, but, really, is it necessary? Did I provide the "whiff" of American Indian culture you were looking for?

Ho ho! You casually quote, but I bet that was a bit of a search for such a 'classic' from Howard as The Black Stranger! I would suggest that that isnt, exactly 'cannon'. Maybe he originally wrote that one as an historical pastiche, ey? Crumbs from the mans waste paper bin indeed. This sort of dispproves what you were saying too, that the Picts werent racially Amerind, but cultural Amerinds. This seems to suggest that they looked like American Indians, a patent absurdity.

'They also occupy a region similar to that of the Iroquois...'

Huh? What do you mean? I was talking geographically.

Anyway, I'll leave you to find more 'evidence', its late.