A G'Vrahn thread!**now with added poll!**

[Kosh127]

Burger wrote:
ISD has nothing to do with a ship's PL. Just like model size, colour and name don't either. Only the ship's power dictates its PL. All ships in one PL should be equal, irrespective of all other details.


Color doesn't matter. My world just fell apart. Yes I agree with most of what you said. However. There must be a high and low end of each PL level. PL don't have to be equal to every ship. It must be "about" equal, it however must be equal to its PL in its fleet as a whole. It would be silly to have all ships in PL be perfect equal to each other.

 

[katadder]

true, but there is no competition between the g'vrahn and the bin'tak - both ships within the same fleet at the same PL. anyone would take a g'vrahn given the choice.

 

[Burger]

However. There must be a high and low end of each PL level.

Why? People will just always use the high end ones, and never the low ones. Case in point most of this thread... people now almost exclusively use the G'Vrahn over the Bin'Tak. That is quite a sad state of affairs.

 

[Kosh127]

Why that a good question and a hard one to answere from a game point of view. However, Ships should not be all the same. It would be boring. Play a campaingn. Use ISD, makes them better. Don't just look for the best thing to go pound your enemy. Look for a balanced fun fleet that would be feasible in the universe. I know I'm old fashion, I would rather have fun and be in the spirt of the universe than destroy everyone. My question to you would be this. Why should all ships be the same in the same fleet with a 21 year diffrence. Tech goes forward. Unless you get nuked (alot) :wink:

 

[Burger]

I never said all ships should be the same... you are right, that would be boring and dull. But all ships within a PL should be the same power level as each other.

99% of players don't use ISD's because they are a hassle, restrict choices and even fleets too much. What if one player has ISA and another has Dilgar?

Like I have already said, yes technology does increase in 21 years. And that is why ships go up in priority levels as they get better.

 

[H]

even ships that in theory could be balanced could still be different, as they utilise different loadouts, speed, fighters and indeed rolls.
I point to the Marathon and Apollo's as examples of this. both quite good ships, but ther Marthon is a fast maneuvreable (but boresight beam) attack ship, while the apollo is a ranged support ship. I would say they are "reasonably" balanced ships but quite different in their use

 

[Kosh127]

The narn have anrmageddon its called a Ka'Bin'Tak. As an Armageddon the G'Vrahn would be on the low end and your argument for ships sould be eqaul would be the same. And we would be polling how the G'Vrahn is so terrible to the Ka'Bin'Tak and should be lowwered in PL or have its stats bumped up. I don't see were you are comming from on this.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Simple. The G'Vrahn is too good for war and not good enough for armegeddon. It needs to change somehow.

 

[Kosh127]

hiffano I agree with you 100%

 

[H]

The narn have anrmageddon its called a Ka'Bin'Tak. As an Armageddon the G'Vrahn would be on the low end and your argument for ships sould be eqaul would be the same. And we would be polling how the G'Vrahn is so terrible to the Ka'Bin'Tak and should be lowwered in PL or have its stats bumped up. I don't see were you are comming from on this.

the G'Vrahn is not, nor was ever an advancement of the Bin'Tak, if anything, it is an advancement of the G'Quan, just like the marathon is an advancement of the Hyperion and a shadow omega is an advancement of the Omega. at no stage has Burger said that the G'Vrahn should be Armageddon. what he is saying that more advanced ships go up priority levels over the ships they replace, then, in theory putting them level with the bigger ships. compare a 105 gun 3 decker which was top of the line in 1814 with its modern day sucessors, huge power difference, but still a modern replacement and sucessor

i think we are just getting confused on our arguments.

 

[Burger]

hiffano I agree with you 100%

He's saying the same thing as me.

I give up, this is obviously bashing my head against a wall. All ships in a certain PL are supposed to be balanced, that is what Matt and playtesters have said. End of.

 

[H]

hiffano I agree with you 100%

He's saying the same thing as me.

I give up, this is obviously bashing my head against a wall. All ships in a certain PL are supposed to be balanced, that is what Matt and playtesters have said. End of.

i think he thought you were saying the G'Vrahn was a sucessor to the Bin'Tak therefore your statement implied as the power went up the G'Vrahn should be arm level . .

 

[Foxmeister]

Simple. The G'Vrahn is too good for war and not good enough for armegeddon. It needs to change somehow.

I do believe that this statement doesn't reflect the results of this poll (as it currently stands), as slightly over 50% (33/65) are in favour of leaving it alone. That is not an indicator of a broken ship IMHO, regardless of any personal biases for or against it.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Burger]

Simple. The G'Vrahn is too good for war and not good enough for armegeddon. It needs to change somehow.

I do believe that this statement doesn't reflect the results of this poll (as it currently stands), as slightly over 50% (33/65) are in favour of leaving it alone. That is not an indicator of a broken ship IMHO, regardless of any personal biases for or against it.

But then nearly 50% think it should be changed, that is not an indicator of a balanced ship

 

[Foxmeister]

But then nearly 50% think it should be changed, that is not an indicator of a balanced ship

Now I didn't say that did I? I was merely using the poll results to refute LDTDs statement!

I for one would be quite "happy", if the e-mines on the Bin'Tak and the G'Vrahn were swapped over, and the G'Vrahns pulse cannons were twin linked because that would give the Narn player good reasons to pick either (as opposed to just the G'Vrahn) at War PL.

I'm sure that some would argue that the two issues are not linked, but if you're going to start "balancing" you need to balance everything and not just pick on a single ship because it happens to be possibly the best at its PL, otherwise it's just a nerf and only broken ships should be nerfed!

If not, all that is going to happen is this conversation will move on to the next "broken" (sorry, "unbalanced"!) ship and eventually you'll end up with a single homogenous ship at every PL!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Enalut]

I think generally this thread is missing the point: The problem is not so much that the G'Vrahn is that good (which it is, it is a dedicated attack vessel designed to drop one ship at a time), but that the BinTak is so bad.

The Bin Tak is intended to be a brawler, that engages multiple targets at once. and it does not do this job well. The 2 ships are not supposed to be interchangable, they serve different purposes.

The G'Vrahn has a glaring weakness--it can only effecitvly engages craft to its front. It does that quite well, but if facing a larger force, once it is outmaonouvered it is not as sucessful. But it is a WAR level ship--it should be able to eviscerate lower level ships in one round--that is its roll (much like comparable War level Vorlon, & Shaddow ships, and to a lesser extent certain Minbari ships).

As to the argumetns that this weaknes can be covered by other ships--isn;t that the purpose of a fleet? To select ships that compliment each other? IF the game is large enough to permit a fleet to cover a G'Vrahn, then the opposing fleet should have enough ships to engage and take out the supportign ships--and hence that is the contest, which side can eliminate the others escorts to expose the fleets weaknesses. Leave teh G'Vrahn as is, it is the improvment and refinement of Narn ship desing, but is not a major departure. It is effectively not the refinement of the G'Quan but of the union of the Var'Nic and Dag'Kar

As to the Bin'Tak, there is no question that it needs improvement to make it viable. It is the sucessor to the G'Quan (another ship that needs improvement). The first step is to make its Emine slow loading. The second is to increase the range on its Ion Canons to 12". I think it would also benifit form giving it a 12" burst beam in each arc, maybe 4 AD?
Finally it should have its fighter doubled and be given a carrier rateing of 2-3. Given these cahnges it becomes able to accomplish its mission--the simulatenous engagement of multiple smaller ships.

Overall, I think the apparent problem with the G'Vrahn is the fleet it comes from. Then Narn Genrally do not have effective ships at Battle level or higher, and the G'Vrahn appears overpowered only by comparing it to some less than adequate choices. Of course Narn Players will take the choice that can accomplish its roll over the ships that cannot. The solution is not to weaken the only viable choice, but to strengthen the worthless chocie to make them viable and able to accomplish their rolls.

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[Foxmeister]

I think generally this thread is missing the point: The problem is not so much that the G'Vrahn is that good (which it is, it is a dedicated attack vessel designed to drop one ship at a time), but that the BinTak is so bad.

Actually, I'm afraid that isn't really what this thread is about at all, though it has strayed in that direction from time to time.

The topic being debated here is whether or not the G'Vrahn is overpowered when compared to other vessels at War PL.

Regards,

Dave

 

[GhostRecon]

I think generally this thread is missing the point: The problem is not so much that the G'Vrahn is that good (which it is, it is a dedicated attack vessel designed to drop one ship at a time), but that the BinTak is so bad.

Actually, I'm afraid that isn't really what this thread is about at all, though it has strayed in that direction from time to time.

The topic being debated here is whether or not the G'Vrahn is overpowered when compared to other vessels at War PL.

Regards,

Dave

While that may have been the original intent of this thread, I believe that as others and myself have illustrated, you cannot discuss -just- balancing one ship without considering how it balances across that entire priority level among all races, how it balances that particular fleet, and how it affects that fleet's performance in relation to other races. And how, ultimately, one can make shifts, if necessary, to better balance the whole equation.

For example, how does nerfing the G'vrahn improve or reduce the entire selection of Narn War-level choices?

The people for nerfing the G'vrahn talk about how if you did, the Bin'Tak would be a better choice... but is all that balancing truly for the better? Is the Bin'Tak truly capable of performing well enough to be a viable choice? Or will we simply see Narn players preferring not to waste points on their now useless War-level choices, and getting more lower-priority ships because they've lost firepower?

How does a nerfed G'vrahn and improved Bin'Tak fare against other war choices in other races? How does it affect Narn War-Priority choice performance?

Balancing even just one ship can have a significant impact on a fleet. How would the Centauri fleet choices change if you nerfed or removed the Liati entirely? Or the Demos?

How about if the Whitestar was nerfed, or the WS Gunship removed? What if all EA Crusade ships lost 2 AD and gained forward arc firing beams instead? What if it was just the Marathon, or the Warlock, or the Hyperion?

It may be easy to say "Oh just change X, and Y will be balanced" but considering the overall ramifications and how those changes ultimately make, or unmake, the actual balance of the game is a bit more difficult. The question of "Well, Y is balanced, but how is Z race affected, and what factors A, B, and C are accounted for in that balance?"

And, as I have repeatedly said, and Misiolak was most kind in helping point out, is the objective and message of all my posts in this thread.

 

[Enalut]

Foxmeister, I understand what you are tryign to convey, but I am trying to point out the flawed assuption on which the debate has been premised.

My point is that the problem is not that the G'Vrahn is overpowered, but that many of the comparible ships are UNDERPOWERED.

The general consenus is that the game favors swam fleets, but one way to add more balence is to actually give the larger ships theteeth to drop those swam s That is actually the role fo teh Bin Tak ( a role it performs poorly) In contrast, the G'Vrahn is intended to take on ships of its same class/size and defeat them. As a side effect, it is able to eviscerate smaller ships easily (an inescablae function of being able to drop larger ships effectively)

Once more the G'Vrahn has a role that it performs well. It appears onverpowered only because the ships you seek to compare it to do their roles so poorly.

Yes the G'Vrahn is able to engage ships effectivley, but for its cost it Needs to be. For instnace, Using the tornament pack published by Mongoose Steele, the G'Vrahn would be 67% of your fleet. Should't 2/3rds of a fleet firing as one initive unit be able to effectly deal with most individual ships effectively?

Would you be complaining the same if the same damage was done by 3 Var Nic's and 1 Dag'Kar Sqandroned together? I use that comparison becomes, for equal points, it comes closest to (and probably exceeds) the weapon potential of the G'Vrahn: 12 AD B/DD, 10 AP/SP, 6 AP/EM/SL/TD plus more secondaries, vs. 6 AD B/DD, 4 AD B/TD, 4 SAP/P, and 6 AP/EM/SL/TD plus 10 AD of secondaries. I consider teh range and Arc advantages fo teh G'Vrahn to be more than balenced out by the reduction in firepower and survivability of one larger ship vs. 4 smaller ones.

Questioning wheter a ship is overpowered is a valid question, but try comparing it to selections that can accomplish the same task for eqaul cost, and do not try and compare it to ships desinged to perform otyher roles (smiper vs brawler in this case).[/quote]

 

[katadder]

lol the bin'tak underpowered? it was considered a good warship before the g'vrahn came around. and it still is a good warship, however it is so far outshone by the g'vrahn its unreal.
swapping the e-mine on these 2 ships would go some way towards correcting that.

the stats you mentioned would be bringing the bin'tak closer to war level. it is still a very good ship, but theres no competition between it and a g'vrahn.