A bigger, better Harrier

[AnotherDilbert]

I think that was the point I started ignoring the radiation trait on PA weapons.

As do I, as long as the defending ship has Radiation Shielding.

If it doesn't (i.e. is a civilian ship) it suffers...

 

[LangyMD]

Feasible, as long as nothing bigger is lurking around.

Does indicate socio political instability.

I think that was also indicated by the death bots and nuclear/viral barrage policy.

 

[Morgoth99]

I don't think I have ever run a game for players willing to rock up to a merchant ship, kill every passenger and crew member ay the push of a button and then take their stuff.
I have run games for players who hunt down such evil psychos though.

Keep i mind that the Sindalian empire and the successor state that got nuked by the Aslan tended to do things like mass bio and WMD attacks on worlds, and eventually pretty much nuked themselves to the stone age. So the Sindalian design influence is "oh, A day that ends in Y. Time for some warcrimes." Which may actually be why you don't see many Harriers anymore, not just because they're old but because they're not as effective for "normal" piracy, and the ones using them as designed, do get hunted down.

 

[Condottiere]

If you can take starships as prizes, and have additional personnel to crew them.

Of course, that requires these starships to be in tact enough, at the end of the process.

 

[Endie]

Keep i mind that the Sindalian empire and the successor state that got nuked by the Aslan tended to do things like mass bio and WMD attacks on worlds, and eventually pretty much nuked themselves to the stone age. So the Sindalian design influence is "oh, A day that ends in Y. Time for some warcrimes." Which may actually be why you don't see many Harriers anymore, not just because they're old but because they're not as effective for "normal" piracy, and the ones using them as designed, do get hunted down.

I’m pretty sure that in the PoD book it says that the Harriers were built specifically to enforce the Drinax trade taxation policy. That lasted a year at most since the next year the Hierate glassed Drinax. So you don’t get many Harriers because within months of the policy announcement they needed all their ships and construction yards to defend against the Asian, and a few months after that they were The Kingdom of Drinax, pop 20,000.

Edit: yep, PoD Trojan Reach book p16: Harriers built starting 884. Fall of Drinax 885.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I’m pretty sure that in the PoD book it says that the Harriers were built specifically to enforce the Drinax trade taxation policy. That lasted a year at most since the next year the Hierate glassed Drinax. So you don’t get many Harriers because within months of the policy announcement they needed all their ships and construction yards to defend against the Asian, and a few months after that they were The Kingdom of Drinax, pop 20,000.

Edit: yep, PoD Trojan Reach book p16: Harriers built starting 884. Fall of Drinax 885.

The Empire of Sindal was TL-15 as well, which would explain the Harriers and Rorix Command Ships that Delta Theta has. I am not aware that the Kingdom of Drinax ever went that far Spinward. So, it could have been legacy blueprints that they started manufacturing again in 884.

 

[Endie]

The Empire of Sindal was TL-15 as well, which would explain the Harriers and Rorix Command Ships that Delta Theta has. I am not aware that the Kingdom of Drinax ever went that far Spinward. So, it could have been legacy blueprints that they started manufacturing again in 884.

We know that the Harriers were built in 884. There is no hint in the materials that Sindal built Harriers 2,200 years earlier and they are explicitly unlike Sindalian designs which are stated to be notable for their imposing, brutal and ugly design, with angular lines. Utterly unlike the sleek, slim Harrier.

Occam’s Razor could hardly be clearer given the series of presumptions needed for the Harrier to secretly be a Sindalian design. Of course, YTU may make that leap.

 

[MasterGwydion]

We know that the Harriers were built in 884. There is no hint in the materials that Sindal built Harriers 2,200 years earlier and they are explicitly unlike Sindalian designs which are stated to be notable for their imposing, brutal and ugly design, with angular lines. Utterly unlike the sleek, slim Harrier.

Where did you get the descriptions for the Sindali ships? I would love to check out something that I missed. The ships are Delta Theta are 2,200+ year old ships.

Occam’s Razor could hardly be clearer given the series of presumptions needed for the Harrier to secretly be a Sindalian design. Of course, YTU may make that leap.

It wouldn't be secretly a Sindali design. Just a design that they had no use for before 884. Same with the Rorix, designed to work in tandem with the Harriers. Drinaxi tech did not advance in the 2,200 years since the fall of Sindal. They were a stagnant society. A mere desiccated corpse of its former self trying to stay alive by price gouging the 3I and the Aslan. Oops! No more desiccated corpse.

 

[LangyMD]

We know that the Harriers were built in 884. There is no hint in the materials that Sindal built Harriers 2,200 years earlier and they are explicitly unlike Sindalian designs which are stated to be notable for their imposing, brutal and ugly design, with angular lines. Utterly unlike the sleek, slim Harrier.

Occam’s Razor could hardly be clearer given the series of presumptions needed for the Harrier to secretly be a Sindalian design. Of course, YTU may make that leap.

There are Harriers on the Sindalian station in Treasures of Sindal. The Harrier is a Sindal-era design.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There are Harriers on the Sindalian station in Treasures of Sindal. The Harrier is a Sindal-era design.

I missed that one.

 

[Condottiere]

Going by spacecraft design rules, two hundred tonnes is an obvious sweet spot.

Whether it would be effective for a starwarship, is something else.

 

[Endie]

There are Harriers on the Sindalian station in Treasures of Sindal. The Harrier is a Sindal-era design.

Yeah I was going to fess up to something like this: on page 120 of the core PoD book it says explicitly that Admiral Gani Peras (the finest Sindalian admiral) used Harrier class ships, so they date to at least -1400.

 

[Arkathan]

Going by spacecraft design rules, two hundred tonnes is an obvious sweet spot.

Whether it would be effective for a starwarship, is something else.

Was that Star Warship or Star Wars ship?
The latter would be more effective at 200 tons, as it would not need the jump fuel.

 

[Condottiere]

Both:

1. Dedicated warship capable of interstellar transitions.

2. Spacecraft from the Star Wars franchise.

 

[Endie]

Resuscitating this rather than starting a new thread. What am I getting wrong with the Harrier because the OP feels it’s underwhelming and I am worried it’s going to bore my group with its powerful combination of attributes.

With thrust 6, the Harrier can dictate range. With her sensors, improved stealth and TL15 modifier for lower tech ships she almost certainly detects first. With the particle accelerator she can hit enemies at a range beyond that of the weapons (and some sensors!) on almost any trader or adventure type ship. And with the military countermeasures suite even the threat of missiles seems minimal unless facing very large barrages with the +6 to EW checks.

Have I missed something? If not then how do I challenge the party to change tactics beyond “you meet yet another Empress Marava fitted with a PA barbette”?

 

[Condottiere]

Gamewise, is it your Millenium Falcon?

Powerful enough to take on most threats, fast enough to get away, if not?

Large enough to accommodate the party, small enough to remain obscure?

 

[LangyMD]

Resuscitating this rather than starting a new thread. What am I getting wrong with the Harrier because the OP feels it’s underwhelming and I am worried it’s going to bore my group with its powerful combination of attributes.

With thrust 6, the Harrier can dictate range. With her sensors, improved stealth and TL15 modifier for lower tech ships she almost certainly detects first. With the particle accelerator she can hit enemies at a range beyond that of the weapons (and some sensors!) on almost any trader or adventure type ship. And with the military countermeasures suite even the threat of missiles seems minimal unless facing very large barrages with the +6 to EW checks.

Have I missed something? If not then how do I challenge the party to change tactics beyond “you meet yet another Empress Marava fitted with a PA barbette”?

Pirate hunters or Q-ships. Against any normal-sized actual trader the Harrier should basically always win; changing up tactics should be due to the targets changing or due to becoming the target of something that is actually scary to a Harrier.

Personally I'm increasing the Harriet's capabilities to leave more room for customization, not to make it a perfect ship fit for purpose. That's mainly by making it a bit bigger and adjusting the ship's specs to meet more of what I think the designers were going for, like having an adjustable hull so it can mimic other ship types in some way.

If you're going to make the Harrier at the top of its game more powerful than it already is, then break it even more so the players have something to look forward to.

 

[Morgoth99]

Of course, it being more powerful than anything but pirate hunters or Q-ships provides an issue for the players. "Do we move fast and earn a lot of money, and thus get the things that can hurt us looking for us specifically... or do we move slowly, and possibly get the King annoyed at our slow pace."

If yuou want a really good example of this, albeit from an insurgency POV, Star Wars Rebels does a great job. Our heroes have NO problem with local stormtroopers, etc...but it's low level stuff. But the moment they start feeling their oats, going after major bases, forming a fleet, establishing a major base... they get on the radar of major groups along with major firepower that they can't hope to match. The same problem faces the players, doing well enough to achieve their goals, but not well enough that their faces appear in every pirate hunter bar...and on the 'deal with this' board of the Imperium's local naval assets.

 

[tytalan]

I have always been rather underwhelmed by the Harrier as a basis of a Kingdom building campaign, and my players had already acquired an uprated Fast Trader that was pretty handy.

So I decided to play with the design, increasing it to 300dT, adding a fighter and a barracks for marines, etc..

I also deliberately made some equipment irreplaceable as it carries on going on about that in the books but it is very bog standard TL15. So the Jump Drive and the Power Plant are both deliberately rule-breaking. There's other things like adding in a gourmet kitchen, briefing room, a collapsible fuel tank in the cargo bay to allow 2 parsec + 1 parsec jumps, etc..

It is a far more capable vessel whilst still needing to avoid fights where it is outgunned.

Enjoy!

View attachment 3955View attachment 3954

I thought I point out to you a standard stateroom is 6 squares a High is 8 and a lux is 12.

 

[locarno24]

Yeah I was going to fess up to something like this: on page 120 of the core PoD book it says explicitly that Admiral Gani Peras (the finest Sindalian admiral) used Harrier class ships, so they date to at least -1400.

They do also mention (but do not describe) the Wyvern, which was a heavier combat version.

The author was asked about this here and suggested it would be a sub 2,000 dTon hull with pretty much the same design logic.