5FW: Why?

[Sigtrygg]

Then lose the whole idea of hardpoints.

I'd be happy to use surface area as a design parameter.

If needed for balance increase the size of the weapon systems, then you will never have a situation where you have 30% of your hull volume still available but have no room to add more guns.

That already happens with small and large bays being options for large ships. A 10,000t ship has 100 hardpoints, fit a 50t bay to every hardpoint and you have used 5000 internal tons.

Look at the old Iowa-class Battleships. 3 - 16" guns in triple turrets (likely bay weapons in Traveller terms), 20 - 5" guns in double turrets, 80 - 20mm Oerlikon Cannons, 49 - 20mm quad-mounted Bofors, etc.

Have you seen how much hull volume those main turrets take up within the hull?

I am guessing that they used actual battleships as the inspiration for Traveller battleship, just adjusted to space flight. If the Iowa-class Battleships were spaceships, they would be 57,000m3 or 4,072ish tons. That gives you a maximum of 40 hardpoints. The ship above would require 152ish hardpoints, almost 4 times as many as would be able to be had in Traveller.

You are counting vehicle scale weapons (20mm ccannons) as ship scale weapons. I would count the 16" guns are 3 bays weapons, the 5" guns as 20 turret weapons, so 24 hardpoints out of 40.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'd be happy to use surface area as a design parameter.

So would I.

That already happens with small and large bays being options for large ships. A 10,000t ship has 100 hardpoints, fit a 50t bay to every hardpoint and you have used 5000 internal tons.

Larger Bays use more Hardpoints

Have you seen how much hull volume those main turrets take up within the hull?

This is why I said that, perhaps doing away with hardpoints and increasing the size of the weapons if needed for balance.

You are counting vehicle scale weapons (20mm ccannons) as ship scale weapons. I would count the 16" guns are 3 bays weapons, the 5" guns as 20 turret weapons, so 24 hardpoints out of 40.

Technically, the 16" guns are vehicle-scale weapons as well because there are no ship-scale weapons in the real world to use as examples. So, I used what I had available for an example.

 

[Condottiere]

Bay turrets require extra hardpoints.

To reiterate, quarter tonne groundscale weapon systems could become very interesting.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So would I.

GT:ISW had an easy way to add it to a High Guard like design system.

Larger Bays use more Hardpoints

The small bay (50t) uses 1, the medium bay (100t) uses 1

This is why I said that, perhaps doing away with hardpoints and increasing the size of the weapons if needed for balance.

And I pointed out that this is already done, a single harpoint may be occupied by 1t, 5t, 50t or 100t of weapon system

Technically, the 16" guns are vehicle-scale weapons as well because there are no ship-scale weapons in the real world to use as examples. So, I used what I had available for an example.

If we use the analogy of WWII BBs being the inspiration for Traveller BBs then the anology carries to the weapons systems.

16" naval guns are analogius to starship bays, 5" guns are analogous with starship turrets, by vehicle scale i am continuing the analogy that the 20mm cannon are analogous with Traveller vehicle/heavy weapon scale weapon systems.

 

[MasterGwydion]

GT:ISW had an easy way to add it to a High Guard like design system.

The small bay (50t) uses 1, the medium bay (100t) uses 1

And I pointed out that this is already done, a single harpoint may be occupied by 1t, 5t, 50t or 100t of weapon system

Not the same thing. Take a Q-Ship design. You want more turrets and less bays. You want pop-up turrets because you are a Q-Ship. You are only 400 tons because you are masquerading as a Subsidized Merchant. I can use 8 tons for pop-up weapons and then I cannot add anymore. I can add bigger drives, but those would be noticable, so not great on a Q-Ship. I can add more armor and that could be hidden, so add 60 tons of Crystaliron armor. Increase the Power Plant by 10 tons to cover the weapons. Now we are at 78 tons total of added items. Upgrade the Sensors, so there is another 3 tons. 10 tons for a Shallow Penetration Suite. Now we are down 91 tons from our 201-ton cargo bay. So, 110 tons of space remaining. Problem is, this isn't a real merchant ship. It is a Q-Ship. So, Captain, Pilot/Astrogator, Engineer, 4 Gunners, and call it 20 Marines. Means I need 4 staterooms and 20 tons of barracks for a total of 36 tons of Accommodations instead of 80.5 tons, a savings of 44.5 tons. Add that to the 110 tons from cargo space and you have 154.5 tons of "free space". This is more than enough for 20 or 30 more pop-up turrets.

If we use the analogy of WWII BBs being the inspiration for Traveller BBs then the anology carries to the weapons systems.

16" naval guns are analogius to starship bays, 5" guns are analogous with starship turrets, by vehicle scale i am continuing the analogy that the 20mm cannon are analogous with Traveller vehicle/heavy weapon scale weapon systems.

If we are saying that We are using the WWII BBs as analogous to Traveller BBs, then none of it's weapons are vehicle-scale. Even the 20mm Cannons would be for anti-fighter defense and therefore be ship-scale weapons, because BBs don't go into an atmosphere and fight actual vehicle-scale fighters.

 

[AndrewW]

The Mayday interview with Ad Astra Games talks some about surface area when discussing Traveller ships:

Ad Astra Games Mayday interview

 

[Sigtrygg]

Not the same thing.

I have no idea what you mean at this point.

Take a Q-Ship design. You want more turrets and less bays.

Real world or starship? Why do you want more turrets and less bays?

A 400t subsidised merchant outfitted as a Q ship could have a nasty 100t bay surprise in store for a pirate...

You want pop-up turrets because you are a Q-Ship.

You have the bay disguised behind the clamshell doors...

You are only 400 tons because you are masquerading as a Subsidized Merchant. I can use 8 tons for pop-up weapons and then I cannot add anymore.

You build your Q ship from a subbie, you put the bay in the cargo hold, it fires out of the open doors.

I can add bigger drives, but those would be noticable, so not great on a Q-Ship.

You hide them behind the rear doors...

I can add more armor and that could be hidden, so add 60 tons of Crystaliron armor.

You can not add armour according to the rules, you would have to build the ship from the keel up as a Q ship, doable but expensive.

Increase the Power Plant by 10 tons to cover the weapons. Now we are at 78 tons total of added items. Upgrade the Sensors, so there is another 3 tons. 10 tons for a Shallow Penetration Suite. Now we are down 91 tons from our 201-ton cargo bay. So, 110 tons of space remaining. Problem is, this isn't a real merchant ship. It is a Q-Ship. So, Captain, Pilot/Astrogator, Engineer, 4 Gunners, and call it 20 Marines. Means I need 4 staterooms and 20 tons of barracks for a total of 36 tons of Accommodations instead of 80.5 tons, a savings of 44.5 tons. Add that to the 110 tons from cargo space and you have 154.5 tons of "free space". This is more than enough for 20 or 30 more pop-up turrets.

Nah, you stick a medium bay or 2 small bays in there instead...

If we are saying that We are using the WWII BBs as analogous to Traveller BBs, then none of it's weapons are vehicle-scale. Even the 20mm Cannons would be for anti-fighter defense and therefore be ship-scale weapons, because BBs don't go into an atmosphere and fight actual vehicle-scale fighters.

Or you could class every 20mm canon as the point defence system - 1 hardpoint 20tons per point defence battery.

So now we have a single hardpoint may be occupied by 1t, 5t, 20t, 50t or 100t of weapon system

40 hardpoints - 3x200t bays (15), 20x5t barbettes(20), 3 point defence systems (3) total 38 hardpoints, so a couple to spare

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have no idea what you mean at this point.

Real world or starship? Why do you want more turrets and less bays?

It is not zero-sum. I am saying you could have more of both.

A 400t subsidised merchant outfitted as a Q ship could have a nasty 100t bay surprise in store for a pirate...

with a -2 or -4 to hit depending on the size of the pirate ship.

You have the bay disguised behind the clamshell doors...

As far as I am aware, there are no rules for this.

You build your Q ship from a subbie, you put the bay in the cargo hold, it fires out of the open doors.

Same as above

You hide them behind the rear doors...

Same as above

You can not add armour according to the rules, you would have to build the ship from the keel up as a Q ship, doable but expensive.

It would certainly have to be built this way.

Nah, you stick a medium bay or 2 small bays in there instead...

Again, with a -2 or -4 depending

Or you could class every 20mm canon as the point defence system - 1 hardpoint 20tons per point defence battery.

These were designed to shoot fighters and bombers, and a point defense battery in the current rules doesn't do that.

So now we have a single hardpoint may be occupied by 1t, 5t, 20t, 50t or 100t of weapon system

Or you have no hardpoints and could install all of those anyhow.

40 hardpoints - 3x200t bays (15), 20x5t barbettes(20), 3 point defence systems (3) total 38 hardpoints, so a couple to spare

Since they are designed to shoot at small craft and therefore not point defense batteries, as they are defined in Traveller, you are short 126 hardpoints.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Hiding bays behind the cargo bay door on a Q ship subbie - see rule zero, I want to do it, therefore I can.

Or if I want to use the rules there is the adjustable hull option page 43 HG2022...

"All weapons, not just turrets, on such a ship have pop-up mountings at no additional cost."

 

[Endie]

With no active sensors how do you target the enemy?

Even today we have wholly passive weapons systems firing wholly passive weapons at targets, in the sea as well as in the air. In fact, development of the AGM-65D was started in the same year as Traveller was first released.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Hiding bays behind the cargo bay door on a Q ship subbie - see rule zero, I want to do it, therefore I can.

Or if I want to use the rules there is the adjustable hull option page 43 HG2022...

"All weapons, not just turrets, on such a ship have pop-up mountings at no additional cost."

Thank you for citing book and page number. I had not seen that quote before! That is interesting and awesome in its capabilities! Now I finally have rules for pop-up bay and spinal weapons.

 

[Nadia Grell]

Is there buried in all the material released so far some explanation of WHY the Zhodani are going to war or what they are trying to accomplish?

Did I miss it or is this some sort of state secret that can't be shared with GMs?

This is an excerpt from Mike Resnik's book "Santiago" where Sebastian Cain, the main character, a bounty hunter sits down and talk with Santiago, the most wanted man in the human sphere that he has been hunting:

"If you want a philosophical justification to why I do what I do, you can find it in my library" continued Santiago "I've got a much simpler explanation"
"what is it?" Cain asked.
"Santiago smiled a savage smile "When someone pushes me, I push back"
"You have already admitted that you can't win over The Democracy"
"But that does not mean that I have to lose,", He paused. "Hell I would not want to overthrow The Democracy even if I could"

I see the frontier wars like this: The Zhodani do not want to lose their worlds to the Third Imperium. They know that sooner or later their worlds will be threatened by this immense Imperium. which is surrounded by alien powers in all directions. The Imperium has only one front they have not really explored and that is the Spinward. And here lies the Consulate.

The Zhodani Consulate know that they can't win against the Third Imperium, but that means that they do not have to lose. The Zhodani has been the aggressor in all the conflicts and they have fought most of the battles on Imperial territory. Yes they have lost a few outlying systems, but the Consulate has remained basically static, as the Zhodani prefer. They get to test out their technology and strategy against a non-psionic, technologically advanced race which will benefit them as they know how to protect their borders. As well as for their expansions coreward and spinward as well and most importantly: with their Core Expeditions.

By invoking wars with a few decades or centuries between keeps the Imperium from want to put too much effort in colonizing the border worlds as people do not want to live close to a warring Consulate as well as it keeps the Imperium happy to let them have a minor victory from time to time and force them to rebuild their destroyed and bombed worlds, instead of colonizing new ones.

The Zhodani can afford losing fleet if it halts or slows down the Imperial expansion efforts in the Zhodani direction in order to keep the rest of the Consulate happy and in a status que.

 

[Condottiere]

You can always find enough Vargr to destabilize the coreward border of the Imperium.

 

[Vormaerin]

I can make up all the explanations I want. I would like to know the explanation that the people publishing all this material are operating from.