5FW: Why?

[rinku]

Just remember how long it takes to deploy most fighters and without launching tubes, it can't be done while under Thrust.

So the mothership thrusts to range and holds off thrusting in the movement phase while the carried craft deploy and act.

As far as fighter effectiveness goes... any weapon can impose a critical hit if they can get one actual hit through defenses and manage an effect of 6 or better. Let's look at a typical fighter that has gotten to Short range and started to dogfight a 6000 ton cruiser.

The fighter pilot WILL win the dogfight roll against any but the smallest ships.

Even with a fully armoured up capital ship, a 2D pulse laser is quite capable of doing the job; +2 inherent to hit, +1 for Close Range, +6 from the size of the target being 6000 tons or more, let's say +1 from pilot Dex and +2 from Gunnery skill, +2 from winning the dogfight. I haven't even rolled to hit and it's already +14.

Let's go with a mere 7 on the to hit roll... effect 13. Damage roll is also a 7... 20 points of actual damage. Let's give the target the maximum TL15 protection of 19. One hull point damage still gets through (but recall this is from rolling a 7 to hit and a 7 for damage. It could have been a lot worse). Trivial for a really big ship in terms of hull damage... but it qualifies for a critical hit roll, in this case good enough for a severity 6 result (Effect -5 gives a severity of 8, but it's capped at 6). Bang! There goes the M-Drive. Bang! Armour degraded. Bang! There go 1D random weapons.

Now... I'm actually not comfortable with these rules scaling up to capital ships, and maybe they simply don't. But it seems to me that at the cruiser level and lower, you'd better really have your point defense sorted or those fighter wings are going to cripple you in very short order.

(Also, many of those high severity criticals cause significant hull damage. Especially once gaps in the armour start to occur, it all starts adding up and may progress to actual ship destruction)

 

[MasterGwydion]

You would also have to do something to make agility matter more. The current fleet combat just aggregates PD so that it vaporizes a certain amount of appropriate targets.

The point of making fighters more agile would be to make agility actually make them survivable. If it doesn't do that, it obviously doesn't serve the purpose.

Figuring out how things work in Fleet Combat is a waste of time since @MongooseMatt said that the current fleet rules are just a placeholder. So, let's skip fleet combat rules and focus on just the standard ship combat rules. If they have higher Acceleration, then they could put more of that acceleration into evading attacks.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd say it's a question of density.

And ours gets capped at one hardpoint per hundred tonnes.

We'll see what new quarter tonne groundscale weapon systems become available with the new Vehicles, and then attach them to battleship hulls.

 

[Terry Mixon]

So the mothership thrusts to range and holds off thrusting in the movement phase while the carried craft deploy and act.

As far as fighter effectiveness goes... any weapon can impose a critical hit if they can get one actual hit through defenses and manage an effect of 6 or better. Let's look at a typical fighter that has gotten to Short range and started to dogfight a 6000 ton cruiser.

The fighter pilot WILL win the dogfight roll against any but the smallest ships.

Even with a fully armoured up capital ship, a 2D pulse laser is quite capable of doing the job; +2 inherent to hit, +1 for Close Range, +6 from the size of the target being 6000 tons or more, let's say +1 from pilot Dex and +2 from Gunnery skill, +2 from winning the dogfight. I haven't even rolled to hit and it's already +14.

Let's go with a mere 7 on the to hit roll... effect 13. Damage roll is also a 7... 20 points of actual damage. Let's give the target the maximum TL15 protection of 19. One hull point damage still gets through (but recall this is from rolling a 7 to hit and a 7 for damage. It could have been a lot worse). Trivial for a really big ship in terms of hull damage... but it qualifies for a critical hit roll, in this case good enough for a severity 6 result (Effect -5 gives a severity of 8, but it's capped at 6). Bang! There goes the M-Drive. Bang! Armour degraded. Bang! There go 1D random weapons.

Now... I'm actually not comfortable with these rules scaling up to capital ships, and maybe they simply don't. But it seems to me that at the cruiser level and lower, you'd better really have your point defense sorted or those fighter wings are going to cripple you in very short order.

(Also, many of those high severity criticals cause significant hull damage. Especially once gaps in the armour start to occur, it all starts adding up and may progress to actual ship destruction)

Actually, no crits on the 6,000-ton ship unless it's by sustained damage, as a fighter won't have anything bigger than a barbette. Hence the nerfing of fighters. Page 27 High Guard Update 2022.

This is why I made the 125-ton Skeeter for getting criticals on up to 10,000 tons. I just made a 200-ton version with medium bays to get up to 100,000 tons.

CRITICAL HITS ON LARGE SHIPS
Large ships can absorb a tremendous amount of damage. During space combat, use the standard Critical Hits rules from the Traveller Core Rulebook with the following modifications:
• Ships larger than 2,000 tons ignore critical hits from turrets and barbettes.
• Ships larger than 10,000 tons ignore critical hits from all weapons except medium and large bay weapons and spinal-mount weapons.
• Ships larger than 100,000 tons ignore critical hits from all weapons except large bays and spinal-mount weapons.
• Spinal mount weapons can always (and will!) cause critical hits.

All ships, even the largest, suffer critical hits from Sustained Damage (see page 170 of the Traveller Core Rulebook) as normal.

The sustained damage rule.

SUSTAINED DAMAGE
A spacecraft will also have its components degraded through sustaining constant damage. Every time a spacecraft sustains damage equalling 10% of its starting Hull score, roll 2D and then consult the Critical Hits Location table. The spacecraft will suffer a Severity 1 critical hit to that location.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Actually, no crits on the 6,000-ton ship unless it's by sustained damage, as a fighter won't have anything bigger than a barbette. Hence the nerfing of fighters. Page 27 High Guard Update 2022.

This is why I made the 125-ton Skeeter for getting criticals on up to 10,000 tons. I just made a 200-ton version with medium bays to get up to 100,000 tons.



The sustained damage rule.

Yeah, the Small Fusion Bay is fun

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah, the Small Fusion Bay is fun

Agreed.

 

[rinku]

Thanks, Terry. I thought I must have missed something.

So anything larger than 2000 tons won't get luck criticals from a fighter wing... BUT they are still capable of doing actual hull damage with their pew pew. And they remain pretty deadly against smaller ships.

A 2000 ship can mount 20 turrets... but it can also carry many times that of fighters.

I can see why the Zho like to have a few onboard their raiders

 

[rinku]

Also, robot fighters are looking sweeter and sweeter. What's the smallest and cheapest you can build a small craft without a crew? It's only going to need Expert Pilot Expert Electronics(Sensors) and Expert Gunnery, I think. You could also save on G-Compensation.

 

[Condottiere]

Cost benefit.

How much a manned fighter would cost, compared to a drone.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Also, robot fighters are looking sweeter and sweeter. What's the smallest and cheapest you can build a small craft without a crew? It's only going to need Expert Pilot Expert Electronics(Sensors) and Expert Gunnery, I think. You could also save on G-Compensation.

G-compensation is covered by the maneuver drive, unless you're boosting output with reaction thrusters, which you can't buy compensation for anyway at this point.

I'll see what I can work up on the fighter front, though the Imperium would never use them, I suspect.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The rules dictate a minimum of 5 tons, but if I just think of this as a drone, I feel no shame in disabling that restriction and I can get it down to 2 tons.




Or I could bump it to 3 tons, chop its armor, and give it better sensors.



If I go to 5 tons, I can have Improved sensors.



8 tons for Advanced sensors.



I'd have to go to 24 tons to get it heavily armored and get improved signal processing and countermeasures. Not sure its worth it.

 

[Condottiere]

You can probably make a robot the size of a missile.

What's interesting, would be, can you make a gravitational based manoeuvre drive to about four and a half kilogrammes?

 

[Terry Mixon]

You can probably make a robot the size of a missile.

What's interesting, would be, can you make a gravitational based manoeuvre drive to about four and a half kilogrammes?

There are robotic missiles in the Robot Handbook. I could make a much more capable one and put it in a missile.




The more competent missile.

 

[Condottiere]

The gravitational based manoeuvre drive is important, because it's the most efficient (and comparatively, fastest) way to get around in Einsteinian space.

Otherwise, you'll reach bingo pretty fast, likely within an hour.

 

[MasterGwydion]

 

[Terry Mixon]

View attachment 4678

Nice. You don't need high automation, though. The crew of two is fine. If you're expecting that the automation makes better to hit rolls, that's still a disputed rules call. I tend to agree with those that say it's only the rolls inside the ship, though I know you disagree. For those that don't use that interpretation of the rule, the cost could be halved.

 

[rinku]

Some good stuff here.

Thoughts:

Doesn't need to spend credits on streamlining. Even armour is questionable since there's no person to protect and a solid hit from even a turret laser takes it out due to 10% damage critical hit rules.

Does it actually need any M Drive? I expect these are going to be pretty much deployed as dogfighting missiles that are going to be on target in one round and unlikely to return. Maybe a smaller M-Drive without G-Comp for dodging, with a reaction booster to get them there. Could even be built as a disposable first stage unit that is discarded. That would allow rapid interception but still allow them to return to mother under their own steam. (also a thing to think about for manned fighters).

 

[MasterGwydion]

Nice. You don't need high automation, though. The crew of two is fine. If you're expecting that the automation makes better to hit rolls, that's still a disputed rules call. I tend to agree with those that say it's only the rolls inside the ship, though I know you disagree. For those that don't use that interpretation of the rule, the cost could be halved.

I just figure, "Where is the Gunnery task done?" It sure isn't made by a guy in a vacc suit standing on the hull. lol. That sounds pretty shipboard to Me.

You are right though, much cheaper if you leave it off. Although you are saving 44.3MCr on having the Core/40 built at TL-15 instead of TL-9.

 

[wmarshal]

There are robotic missiles in the Robot Handbook. I could make a much more capable one and put it in a missile.

View attachment 4676


The more competent missile.

View attachment 4677

Does the more competent missile have a warhead?

 

[Terry Mixon]

I just figure, "Where is the Gunnery task done?" It sure isn't made by a guy in a vacc suit standing on the hull. lol. That sounds pretty shipboard to Me.

You are right though, much cheaper if you leave it off. Although you are saving 44.3MCr on having the Core/40 built at TL-15 instead of TL-9.

I can get you a robotic gunner that’s a lot cheaper and more effective.