2nd ed fighters - have they changed?

mollari_uk

Mongoose
Hi,

I've owned 1st ed for ages but only recenty started playing so I bought 2nd ed just the other day as I want to get into the game properly and thought it's best to start with the latest version.

I read a while ago that fighters in 1st ed were too powerful. In reading 2nd ed nothing seems to have changed. Have I missed something, are fighters still too good?
 
They weren't too good in the latest version of 1st ed (Armageddon), and definitely weren't too good in the previous one (SFoS). In the original version, over 2 years old, they were too good....

They aren't too good in 2e either IMO.
 
The main changes to fighters are that they can no longer perform Special Actions, have no CQ score, and the new Anti-Fighter trait on many ships makes it harder for them to get in close and survive to attack the ship.

LBH
 
lastbesthope said:
The main changes to fighters are that they can no longer perform Special Actions, have no CQ score, and the new Anti-Fighter trait on many ships makes it harder for them to get in close and survive to attack the ship.
LBH
And the fact that their weapons are less powerful, as, among other things, they lost the precise traits.

BTW, I have a question: Do you resolve dogfight twice per turn (once for each player), or only once per turn?

Marc
 
Lord David the Denied said:
Fighters can't go Scanners to Full or Open Jump Gate any more?
Not scanners to full, no. They can do open jump gate but not hack an enemy one.

madpax said:
BTW, I have a question: Do you resolve dogfight twice per turn (once for each player), or only once per turn?
Once per player.
 
Burger said:
madpax said:
BTW, I have a question: Do you resolve dogfight twice per turn (once for each player), or only once per turn?
Once per player.
Assuming you still have fighters involved with the dogfight in base contact with the opponent when the "firing initative" switches over to the other player/next player. (e.g. - the dogfight results were equal, 2 kotha taking on 1 white star fighter, etc)
 
Lord David the Denied said:
Fighters can't go Scanners to Full or Open Jump Gate any more?

They don't need STF any more, they count as ships when using the '-1 to Stealth if a surviving ship has broken your Stealth this turn' rule.
 
On the other hand, they have some good things:
- No stealth check when contacting a target (also, a stealthy target within 8'' suffer a reduction in stealth, as a stealthy target already hit; all those make the fighter contribution to reducing enemy stealth important)
- Fighters may support fighters and ships. in the former case, they are included in a dogfight whenever the supported fighter is. In the latter, they enter a dogfight automatically against any enemy fighter attacking the ship, and better yet, they act as interceptor.

Marc
 
A number of fighters have precise weapons, just as a number of figters have weapons that can fire outside of the 2" range of a ship's AF defences.

MGP have struggled with including fighters in to a fleet scale game. In the various versions of the game, power has swung back and forth between fighters and ways of negating them. The currcet version opts for a middle of the road approach but leaves fighters able to mug a ship en-masse or stay out of AF defence range and take pot shots. Not perfect but better than any of the solutions in other earlier versions of the game
 
The evolution of ACTA fighters:

Original Edition: Fighters were all armed with precice weapons, in large swarms they were utterly devastating. They were fired 'as a ship' as a single initiaitve step, this basically meant you could if you wont initiative strike first with your fighters (before any chance at anti fighter firing) with large numbers of powerful weapons that would score lots of critical hits, combined with the very lethal 1st edition crit tables that could disarm or even outright destroy a ship completely in one hit most people found this a little over the top to put it mildly!

Sky Full of Stars/Revised 1st Edition: Fighters had their precice weapons stripped, and now moved after all ships and fired after all of them too. The end result was basically that fighters could fly rings round enemy ships but when they actually came in for an attack they got shot pieces before they could strike and even if they surived their frankly pitiful weaponry meant they tended to inflict minimal damage except to the very weakest enemies. However they DID gain the ability to perform scanners to full and became the bane of stealth fleets everywhere!

Armageddon: The change here was minimal but signifigant. Fighters now fired BEFORE ships. They also ingnore stealth while very close to their target. This one was a mixed bag really. On the one hand they could get their strikes in before antifighter weaponry toasted them all, but the problem was that some fragile ships, mainly Minbari and Vree were TOO vulnerable to fighter attack, biggish swarms could utterly destroy such ships before they ever had a chance to fire their anti fighter weaponry rendering them more or less pointless! However generally fighters were still useless against tougher ships unable even to do much of consequence before being destroyed by large amounts of antifighter weaponry now.

2nd Edition: Fighters lose their scanners to full ability but this is replaced by the fact that they effectively perform this same function by the mere act of attacking a stealth protected ship (which in many ways make more sense anyway, just because they're targeting a ship doesnt mean they woulndt just pull a trigger too!). The big change though is the change from the antifighter weapon trait to the special antifighter x ship trait. Basically this allows ships to try and shoot down x fighters within 2 inches before they fire, it means that some ships with high AF ratings are suicide for fighters to attack but most will only stop a few fighters a turn leavign the rest free to attack, combined with second edtions wider variety of fighter (many that have gained much better anti ship capabilities and increased toughness) have left 2nd ed fighter as a genuine danger to ships but one that can be countered. In other words if you leave your fleet vulnerable to fighters you WILL now regret it but similarly you do now have plenty of ways of stopping them (and even dedicated escort ships that can provide valuable fighter screens).

In short fighters in 2nd ed ARE much imporved in my eyes. Theyre not overpowering (well unless your playing Gaim I suppose....) but theyre still a genuine threat that you can no longer afford to simply ignore. In short, I LIKE the fighter rules as they are now :)
 
In addition, by making anti-fighter weapons a single statline (well - ok, two single statlines) it really draws a distinction between flak-protected ships and vulnerable ones.

Similarly, most races now have access to a bomber-analogue, which (whilst usually not that much more heavily armed) can strike from outside flak range, leaving you either dependant on your own fighters to screen you, or else in the unenviable situation of trying to shoot down fighters with a capship's main guns.
 
hmm yes the Centauri for instance have

a Razik - wonderful fighter - combine them with fleet carrier and almost unstopable (+4 dogfight). not good guns but usable and every little helps :)

Sentri - good all rounder - reasonable guns and very good dogfight

Rutarian - wonderful - deadily guns and hard to kill but able to dogfight with the best - especially with a fleet carrier!
:D

then there is the Shadows :cry:
 
something a lot of people miss also is that fighters don't have a CQ rating anymore. everything is based off of the dogfight rating itself.

Chern
 
The other major tweak in between the revisions and editions is the inclusion of the Fleet Carrier trait on some of the warships (e.g EA Poseidon, Minbari Morshin etc.). While not all races get a Fleet Carrier it does provide a nice buff for your fighters, and provides a chance to recycle destroyed flights back into the fight.

Under 1e, fighters were perhaps the most awesome force in the game. Precise on their weaponry meant that ships died in droves, unless you had a fighter screen of your own.

Under SFOS, fighters got mercilessly beaten with a big stick to the point they became pretty useless, unless you were playing against Minbari, where Stealth reducing suicide fighters drew some fire away from your capital ships. Breaching pods were also introduced too, but these were a pain in the but to use successfully.

Under Arm, they brought in the tweaks to the Carrier trait for campaigns, and the Fleet Carrier trait. This did improve them a bit, but they were still less useful than a ship.

Playing 2e, I like fighters. There is a nice balance to them. Whilst not being a guaranteed game winner[*] they are strong enough to make a valuable contribution to most fleets - either as space superiority fighters, or as 'bombers'. Or provide other useful functions; like breaking stealth and intercepting incoming fire. The Carrier and Fleet Carrier traits have been carried over and tweaked nicely too, and (Advanced) Anti Fighter traits have replaced the Anti-Fighter guns on some ships; this leaves some ships vulnerable to Fighter attack, and others protected to the point that you need dedicated 'bombers' or masses of fighters to get through, all depending on the levels of protection. Still not too sure on the effectiveness Breaching pods, though I may just need to experiment more with them.

[*] see the thread about the Gaim being too powerful.
 
Da Boss said:
Rutarian - wonderful - deadily guns and hard to kill but able to dogfight with the best - especially with a fleet carrier!
:D

Rutarians are evil and very powerful pretty much how shadow fighters should be.
 
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