2e ACTA - Shadow/Vorlons and Criticals

[WereRogue]

I was thrown by the inclusion of this line in the Special Fleet Rules entry for both fleets:

"They are completely immune to any critical hits that affect crew . . . "

It seems redundant if all it's saying is "ignore any crew or troops damage caused by Critical hits", that seems pretty clear given that neither race has either a Crew or a Troops score.

The alternative way of interpreting it (and scarily powerful), is "ignore all Critical Hit results that would cause loss of either crew or troops, including any extra damage, or effects".

So, what's up?

Oh, and forgive if this has already been discussed elsewhere.

-Ken

 

[lastbesthope]

It seems redundant if all it's saying is "ignore any crew or troops damage caused by Critical hits", that seems pretty clear given that neither race has either a Crew or a Troops score.

What if later ships do have Crew scores though.....?

As for your second point, I don't know.

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

I read it that they are immune to the crew part of the damage but take the rest................but see what you mean!

 

[Iain McGhee]

Perhaps it refers to the Crew section of the criticals tables, such as hull breaches and fires. Since they probably don't have crew spaces the effects wouldn't apply. I'd read it to mean you ignore any critical that rolls a 5 for the area affected.

 

[WereRogue]

Perhaps it refers to the Crew section of the criticals tables, such as hull breaches and fires. Since they probably don't have crew spaces the effects wouldn't apply. I'd read it to mean you ignore any critical that rolls a 5 for the area affected.

That's much more plausible, actually.

But, in that case, I think wording it as: "They are completely immune to any critical hits rolled on the Crew section of the Critical Hits chart" or something similar.

I hope someone w/ MGP pops in here to provide a concrete answer.

-Ken

 

[Burger]

I reported that one as a blatant hole in the rules, looks like I was ignored.

It's fairly obvious what is meant, that Shadows and Vorlons don't take any crew damage even from critical hits, although they do suffer the extra damage and crit effects. Or maybe you're right, they ignore all "5" crits. But by the wording of the rules, Vorlons and Shadows are completely immune to virtually all critical hits.

I sense a 2e FAQ coming, and I sense that most of the points the tier 2 playtesters raised will be on it!!! :roll:

 

[Iain McGhee]

It's the wording that makes me think they mean something other than just "Shadows don't take crew casualties". Not having crew or troops in the first place, it'd be a pointless rule (unless as LBH says they intend to include some sort of Shadow troopship or something later). My thoughts on reading it was that perhaps they meant Crew rather than crew and the proofreaders changed it by mistake, not understanding the difference. Either that or I'm way off the mark. Not without precedent in both cases

 

[Burger]

I thought it was put in there to stop some superbeardy powergamer saying "well you don't take crew damage from solid hits but you took one from this critical so you lost 1 crew, Shadow Ships only have 1 crew member as everyone knows, so the ship is dead!"

As I said I did report it as a huge error in wording. I don't know why it was ignored because it is a BIGGIE. Playing these rules as written is horribly overpowered.

 

[WereRogue]

Well, both Matt and Greg weighed in over on the "Dodge and Adrift" thread, hopefully they'll weigh in over here as well.

I'm sure we're all clear on what the intent is, but it would be very nice to have some official word.

-Ken

 

[Greg Smith]

I can't tell you anything other than the obvious. Shadows, Vorlons and ancients don't take crew damage. The rule is the same as it was for the ancients in the Armageddon book.

 

[Burger]

The rule is the same as it was for the ancients in the Armageddon book.

Yes but it's written competely differently, and quite erroneously!

 

[WereRogue]

The rule is the same as it was for the ancients in the Armageddon book.

Yes but it's written competely differently, and quite erroneously!

Agreed. "Completely immune" is a pretty straight-forward (and encompassing) statement.

I mean, if the Doc told me I was "completely immune" to the common cold, I wouldn't expect to get any symptoms at all, you know?

-Ken

 

[Greg Smith]

The rule is the same as it was for the ancients in the Armageddon book.

Yes but it's written competely differently, and quite erroneously!

Both say 'immune to critical hits that affects crew'.

 

[Burger]

The rule is the same as it was for the ancients in the Armageddon book.

Yes but it's written competely differently, and quite erroneously!

Both say 'immune to critical hits that affects crew'.

In 1e, they took damage according to a different damage table than normal. The special rules said they take no crew loss at all. In 2e, they take damage the same as other ships, and are susceptible to critical hits just like other ships... except it says they are completely immune to any critical hit that affects crew.

- A 4-6 Catastrophic Ammunition Explosion crit affects crew, it kills 4.
- Therefore a Shadow Ship is completely immune to a 4-6 critical.
- Completely immune means it does not lose 4 crew, it does not lose 3 damage, and it does not lose a random weapons arc.

According to the rules as written, that is. We are all assuming that is not what is intended or playtested.

 

[Greg Smith]

Yes but it's written competely differently, and quite erroneously!

Both say 'immune to critical hits that affects crew'.

Exactly. But before, they couldn't take critical hits. Now:

Ancients could always take criticals, nothing has changed. When Armageddon came out no-one questioned the wording of the rule, granted probably because no-one used the Ancients very much.

I agree the rule could have been worded better. But everyone seems clear on the intent.

 

[Burger]

Ancients could always take criticals, nothing has changed. When Armageddon came out no-one questioned the wording of the rule, granted probably because no-one used the Ancients very much.

But now this rule applies to Vorlons and Shadows also, so it will be used a lot.

I agree the rule could have been worded better. But everyone seems clear on the intent.

All the experienced forum visitors, yes. But what about people who never played 1e, and aren't forum regulars? If they follow the wording of the rules (and in fact some beardy tournament player could insist on following the letter of the rules, even if the intent is clear!), the Shadows and Vorlons are sick ovepowered.

It needs fixing.

 

[katadder]

I tihnk IIRC correctly it was supposed to be immune to crew crits, ie all of crits under 5:crew on the crit table.
the wording is bad, but unfortunately thats how things seem to pan out in CTA books

 

[Ripple]

Sad but true...and now we have two playtesters from the primary group giving us different answers on what was intended.

So much for we're all clear on the intent.

We have at least three valid conclusions from the written rule.

Immune to criticals with a crew damage component.
Immune to criticals rolled on the Crew table.
Immune to crew damage component of many criticals.

Official answer would be good, and a FAQ even better.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

having no crew they are also immune to the crew part of any crit anyway.

 

[WereRogue]

having no crew they are also immune to the crew part of any crit anyway.

Yeah, which is part of the cause of the confusion. Is it redundant wording?

-Ken