10 Sagg fleet, Mythbusted?

[lastbesthope]

erm last ruling I saw, you COULD dodge exploding ships. You cant intercept them though

True, but on the day Matthew changed his mind on that until after I lost a White star because of it, then changed his mind back again.

Apopleptic didn't do me justice at that time.

:twisted:

LBH

 

[emperorpenguin]

Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...

No, becuase thats like saying lets measure Chelsea, against Aldershot town to prove how good Chelsea are

well considering Chelsea couldn't beat Middlesboro..... :twisted:

 

[Reaverman]

Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...

No, becuase thats like saying lets measure Chelsea, against Aldershot town to prove how good Chelsea are

well considering Chelsea couldn't beat Middlesboro..... :twisted:

Yeah yeah, and we wont mention Fulham or Charlton shall we

 

[emperorpenguin]

Yeah yeah, and we wont mention Fulham or Charlton shall we

why not? I've waited 2 years for United to top the Premiership table!

 

[Voronesh]

Very nice writeup ^^.

But i gotta say while you proved that its beatable that doesnt really mean anything at all. You could beat an all Sag fleet with 1 Warlock if you so wish, waiting for that 1 game where luck is seriously skewing results.

Do 5 games, and when you can do a repeatable result like that, we can talk again. Sure if you play long enough every fleet can be beaten. But its all about broken, which means 90% of the games, not every one of them.

 

[Reaverman]

Yeah yeah, and we wont mention Fulham or Charlton shall we

why not? I've waited 2 years for United to top the Premiership table!

EP, the season has only just started. Talk like that is gonna curse the Devils! The last time I saw someone brag like that, it was an Arsenal fan, and they lost the Premiership to MU :?

 

[Reaverman]

Very nice writeup ^^.

But i gotta say while you proved that its beatable that doesnt really mean anything at all. You could beat an all Sag fleet with 1 Warlock if you so wish, waiting for that 1 game where luck is seriously skewing results.

Do 5 games, and when you can do a repeatable result like that, we can talk again. Sure if you play long enough every fleet can be beaten. But its all about broken, which means 90% of the games, not every one of them.

I'll gurantee, that if you played one game per day. You would not be around to brag, that your one warlock won 10 sag. Even if Tank, was using is "Femmy dice of love" for the Sags.

 

[prelude_to_war]

Refresh my memory on the math of this particular scenario...by jumping in, destroying some ships and leaving the Vorlon player would win the match? Fair enough given the scenario I suppose. But that tactic could be used against any fleet, no?

Results would differ in the other scenarios wouldn't they? Annihilation etc.?

 

[emperorpenguin]

EP, the season has only just started. Talk like that is gonna curse the Devils! The last time I saw someone brag like that, it was an Arsenal fan, and they lost the Premiership to MU :?

I'm touching wood, and by that I mean the desk, you dirty minded sods....



On topic surely no one can seriously believe there is such a thing as an "unbeatable" fleet?
"unbalanced" yes but not unbeatable

 

[prelude_to_war]

For the record the Sag fleet was beaten by the Hunterx2+Scout fleet in the first Vassal Tournament.

 

[Reaverman]

For the record the Sag fleet was beaten by the Hunterx2+Scout fleet in the first Vassal Tournament.

well one broken fleet, destroyed by another broken fleet...sounds like irony to me

 

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Very nice write up, I hope you will do more.

 

[Ripple]

Hmm...just chiming in with the crowd.

1 - Fabulous report, really nice job.

2 - Yes, please play against a race that can take criticals.

3 - Doesn't this contradict your previous example of Small is Better Than Large?

4 - What is that table like. Looking at makeing a hard top I can break down and fit in the car. Wondering is it a full 4' x 6'? Did you have to coat the top to prevent chipping? Paint or some kind of picture sticker? Okay, no more badgering.

Ripple

 

[Tank]

Nice Write up Hash, cant wait to see the other fleets used against this "Broken Fleet" be interesting to see what Reavermans Narn Fleet will pull out the bag :lol:

And Reaverman leave my Dice alone, they cant help it!

 

[Burger]

@Voronesh
There was no ridiculously good luck here on the side of the Vorlon. Most of the dice rolling was pretty average. This was not "1 in a million lucky game" for the Vorlon. You Warlock would have died horribly 99% of the time, whereas the Vorlon would likely win over 50% of the time.

@Ripple
2) Yes we will do this at a later date
3) Yes :lol: But this was a fleet specifically tailored to defeat the 10x Sag fleet. The Vorlon would likely not do too well in a standard tourney, verses other fleets. For example any Shadow fleet would completely take it apart (even 5x Scout)
4) The tables are 4"x4". They are 2 pieces of 4x2 MDF from B&Q, stuck together with a gaffer tape "hinge". More gaffer tape around the edges to protect, then painted black. "Nebula" effects added with spray paints and templates, and "stars" with a chopped off brush flicking white paint Jackson Pollock-style.

@Prelude
Assuming the Vorlon only took his Heavy Cruiser to the table...

In Call To Arms he would give away 6 VP for a tactical withdrawl (20% of 30), and 5 VP for the EA player having ships left on the table. 11 total. So, he could destroy 3 Sag's then jump out, for a 11 vs. 15 victory. Or, 5 Sag's for a 11 vs. 25 victory (for a 17-3 tourney point win).

Space Superiority, he would give away 6 for tactical withdrawl, 5 for EA having ships left, and 5 for each quadrant under EA control. Most likely this would be 2, but could easily be 4. If 2, he'd have to kill 5 Sag's for a 21 vs 25 VP victory. If 4, he'd have to kill 7 for 31 vs 35.

Annihilation, obviously if he jumped out he'd lose 17-3. Not recommended.

A pretty cheesy way to win though, we endorse the "stay and fight!" tactic. Of course another cheesy way to win would be to simply play reeeeeaaalllllly sloooooooowly... so that you have killed 3 Sag's, and your Vorlons are still alive when the 2 hour time limit runs out. 15 vs 0 VP's, for a 20-0 tourney point split. Beardy.

 

[Hash]

Thanks for the compliments folks, very much appreciated! I will definately be up for writing another one in the near future.

A pretty cheesy way to win though, we endorse the "stay and fight!" tactic. Of course another cheesy way to win would be to simply play reeeeeaaalllllly sloooooooowly... so that you have killed 3 Sag's, and your Vorlons are still alive when the 2 hour time limit runs out. 15 vs 0 VP's, for a 20-0 tourney point split. Beardy.

Yeah, Reaverman and I discussed this tactic when I "accidently" disabled the lights - it would be a 17-3 victory though as there would still be an EA fleet on the table....not that I'm saying it's not an incredibly cheesy tactic! That definately merits a zero for sportsmanship...

 

[Burger]

Oh yeah you're right of course, 17-3. I thought if it the previous day too, as an "if all else fails" tactic to busting the myth :wink:

I think there would be a 0 for both sides for sportsmanship. A 10 Sag fleet automatically gets a 0 in my book, and someone who timewastes to win would get 0 also!

 

[Reaverman]

3 - Doesn't this contradict your previous example of Small is Better Than Large?

Remember, this is a broken fleet and it did near go the EA way. Anyway, I think I mentioned in 'Little vs Big' that Ancients were probably exempt to the rule

 

[Locutus9956]

As I've said before I've been wondering if the Vorlon Hvy Cruiser is not a little too good (again as you say it would get owned by shadows but just because a fleet can be beaten doesnt make it fair).

Im starting to lean towards thinking that first ones should NOT be tournament legal at all. Theres too many balance issues. I know that would suck majorly and Id rather not go down that route but while youre mythbusting the 10 Sags have you tried fighting against the Vorlon Hvy + fleet with much else? It's actually shockingly hard to beat, even for races with massive amounts of long range firepower like Centauri and Minbari....

(ps this is not to say I dont LIKE the Vorlon heavy cruiser as it is, I actually think it feels like a Vorlon ship should currently but that almost by definition makes it an unfair tournament choice)

 

[Reaverman]

As I've said before I've been wondering if the Vorlon Hvy Cruiser is not a little too good (again as you say it would get owned by shadows but just because a fleet can be beaten doesnt make it fair).

Im starting to lean towards thinking that first ones should NOT be tournament legal at all. Theres too many balance issues. I know that would suck majorly and Id rather not go down that route but while youre mythbusting the 10 Sags have you tried fighting against the Vorlon Hvy + fleet with much else? It's actually shockingly hard to beat, even for races with massive amounts of long range firepower like Centauri and Minbari....

(ps this is not to say I dont LIKE the Vorlon heavy cruiser as it is, I actually think it feels like a Vorlon ship should currently but that almost by definition makes it an unfair tournament choice)

Well when Armageddon is out, the Heavy cruiser, moves up a PL.