Zorak Zoran

[Rasta]

I'm wodering if there is any official ruling on this, and if not, would like to hear some thoughts on how to handle the cult of ZZ within an Uz society.

Many Uz cults are strongly tied to the darkness rune, so many prohibit the use of any fire or light magic. (Kygor Litor, Xolia Umbar)

All Uz are innately members of Kygor Litor. Zorak Zoran is arguably the most powerful cult of the Uz.

So what are some thoughts on how this would be viewed within an Uz society? Would members of KL & XU, be excommunicated upon joining ZZ?

Are members of ZZ prohibited from joining most affiliated Uz cults?

Do the Uz pay little attention to this descrepancy as ZZ's ends justify his means?

A thought of mine was that members of ZZ would not be permitted to become any rank higher than lay member in an associate cult that prohibits fire magic. Also, if they were a higher ranking member of said associated cult, they would have their benifits striped away and be demoted to lay member.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Cleombrotus]

I would think that the fire powers would be brandished as a 'badge of honour' by ZZ worshippers and would be treated as such by other trolls and their cults. It is, after all, a visible symbol of a defeated foe - a trophy taken from the field of battle.
There have been several mentions in texts (haunted ruins, temple of the wooden sword, etc) of political infighting between different worshippers of various troll war gods for supremacy within any particular troll society.

 

[Rasta]

I would think that the fire powers would be brandished as a 'badge of honour' by ZZ worshippers and would be treated as such by other trolls and their cults. It is, after all, a visible symbol of a defeated foe - a trophy taken from the field of battle.
There have been several mentions in texts (haunted ruins, temple of the wooden sword, etc) of political infighting between different worshippers of various troll war gods for supremacy within any particular troll society.

Thanks for the reply.

So if it was your game, I take this to mean that members of ZZ would not restricted in anyway towards membership in associate cults that prohibit fire magic?

 

[Cleombrotus]

I see ZZ as an extreme cult even by troll standards, with far more in common with Urox than Karrg. I don't think that other troll cults would really want ZZ members in their ranks, but would revere the god and the mythology (particularly the fire powers) and be secretly glad that he's on their side.
I think that ZZ trolls would scorn any member who wanted to join another cult and their status in the cult would be diminished unless they were able to beat the crap out of anyone who (inevitably) suggested it.

 

[Rasta]

I see ZZ as an extreme cult even by troll standards, with far more in common with Urox than Karrg. I don't think that other troll cults would really want ZZ members in their ranks, but would revere the god and the mythology (particularly the fire powers) and be secretly glad that he's on their side.

This is simular to my thoughts as well.

I think that ZZ trolls would scorn any member who wanted to join another cult and their status in the cult would be diminished unless they were able to beat the crap out of anyone who (inevitably) suggested it.

Cool. Thanks for the reply.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Rasta]

Any other thoughts on this?

 

[IndicusSativas]

I think ZZ trolls should get to be in certain cults based on the GM discretion. I don't think that it would be fair to deny any ZZ troll membership to or ascension through the ranks of a cult based solely on their association with ZZ. It seems to me that most trolls would be in 2 cults if they were strong enough to bash anyone who opposed their choice to be in 2 cults. Also because of internal feud amongst trolls maybe there would be certain alliances. For example, trolls that favor trading and non-troll interaction might enjoy the convienence of fire but more rural trolls may have a distaste for it all together simply because they don't need it for themselves or anyone around them. The trade trolls may dislike the rural uz for attacking caravans and disrupting trade. The rural uz could resent the trade uz because they use fire and trade with non-uz.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Zorak Zoran is, in many ways, one of the most interesting cults of Glorantha. It encapsulates all of the moral ambiguity that gives the world a sense of 'realism'.
I think that it's difficult to argue that ZZ is not an 'evil' cult. It represents the worst aspects of the Man rune, i.e. hate and vengeance.
Yet ZZ is one of the most revered chaos fighter gods. I love the fact that we find ourselves in the whole area of what we potentially lose of ourselves and the moral sacrifices necessary to wage war.
Ahh, the Gloranthan onion...

With reference to the original question, I have reverted back to the RQ2 notion of the Lay Member. I make players take Initiation very seriously, and I think that the RQ3 idea of characters starting as Initiates was too close to character class and that it undermined the impact and choice of Initiation.
This is why I would give a character a hard time for joining ZZ. But I think that joining any cult, and particularly joining any two cults should be an invite for a GM to challenge a character's motives and devotions.

 

[Rasta]

I think ZZ trolls should get to be in certain cults based on the GM discretion.

Agreed. That is me.

I don't think that it would be fair to deny any ZZ troll membership to or ascension through the ranks of a cult based solely on their association with ZZ.

Well ZZ is a pretty powerful cult, with powerful magic. I don't feel this is unbalanced in any way. It is the practising of fire magic which is forbidden by certain Uz/darkness cults.

Technically, ZZ is a darkness cult as his runes are death, darkness, and disorder: http://www.glorantha.com/library/religions/cult-zorakzoran.html

Though as stated above, even by Uz standards, he is considered a radical cult.

What I want to avoid is players joining cults for the purpose of getting cool spells. It should rather be seen as gaining rewards for being faithful to, or emulating your diety.

It seems to me that most trolls would be in 2 cults if they were strong enough to bash anyone who opposed their choice to be in 2 cults.

I think this only applies when cult characteristic traits are diametrically opposed. I think most Uz cults mesh pretty well together, with ZZ as an exception.

ZZ seeks disorder, which I think would not be behavior tolerated by Kygor Litor: who set up the matriarchical order of Uz society, Karrg: who is the good son (the role model of how good male Uz should behave), and even perhaps Argan Argar who seeks peaceful and fair trading with non-Uz.

So a pious member of ZZ would not be seen as pious by other cult standards, even if they are secretly happy that ZZ is on their side.

If an Uz was a pious member of Karrg, he would not be seen as pious by the ZZ cult, perhaps rather seen as a weak "momma's boy".

If the Uz is secretly not pious towards any of the traditions, they are unlikely to raise to a prominant position in either cult.

Also because of internal feud amongst trolls maybe there would be certain alliances. For example, trolls that favor trading and non-troll interaction might enjoy the convienence of fire but more rural trolls may have a distaste for it all together simply because they don't need it for themselves or anyone around them. The trade trolls may dislike the rural uz for attacking caravans and disrupting trade. The rural uz could resent the trade uz because they use fire and trade with non-uz.

I think like everything else in Glorantha, there can always be exceptions to the rule, but I am just trying to solidify a general rule to Uz society.

For example, I recently read that ZZ is a fairly powerful force especially in the second age. In shadow dance, the cult of ZZ becomes more prominant than KL, and many aid the Dragonewts in the Dragonkill.

 

[TRose]

I remember reading some thusa during the 19 century. It was respecting years ago that Only Zorak Zoran and smith use fire in trolls society. And Trolls smith are often villians in troll stories and not trusted by the rest of troll society.
My feeling is Zorak Zorani are respected by Troll society but not trusted and you would not want you child to be one.
Think of the army in the UK / USA during the 19th century. Respect to a degree ,but not some thing respectable people joined.

 

[Cleombrotus]

I'm as guilty as anyone else, but alternative motives for worshipping gods are seldom explored. For example I've always loved the idea of propitiary worship of Malia, but I never remember it when I sit down to think of scenarios/encounters.

Zorak Zoran is fantastically ambiguous and I like the idea the ZZ is essentially a demon of darkness. Worshipped by many out of fear (remember the description of troll worship of Anilla in Trollpak?) and emulated by a few extremist militants and outcasts?

When I think about it I cannot see anyone of any race or cult giving any trust whatsoever to anyone openly associated with this cult. Likes Pain, Hate, Vengeance, Ambush, Berserk Rages, Theft, Undead, Darkness. Any matches for speed daters?

If I had to come up with a personality to put into a character to embody ZZ, it would be of the militant elder race, holding a deep grudge against such injustices as the curse of kin and a hatred of the weakness displayed by my own kind in falling from power. In short, a militant extremist. I would lead by example in demonstrating the innate weaknesses of other races and would therefore be just about the most unpleasant individual that anyone could possibly meet.

Any other ways of worshipping Zorak Zoran? Not least because I described it as 'fantastically ambiguous' and then couldn't think of anything ambiguous about it at all.

 

[soltakss]

I doubt whether troll worshippers of ZZ would be excommunicated from Kyger Litor - they are trolls after all.

Multiple worship of ZZ and XU is probably not on the cards, except for UzUz who can pretty do whatever they want if they can justify it.

As to their place in society, ZZ are the brute force of trolls, used when other trolls can't get the job done and where aggression is paramount. Other trolls accept Zorak Zorani without a problem but there is a rivalry with worshippers of Karrg and Kyger Litor's Karrg's Sons as to who is the best troll wargod.

Where you get an organised ZZ cult in an area then it will challenge the Karrg or Argan Argar cultists to see who is the prime wargod. If ZZ wins then the clan will become more ZZ in nature - mobs/gangs of berserker trolls rather than individual warriors in groups or masses of spearmen. The clan will be more aggressive and less tolerant, especially towards traditional enemies such as light or fire/sky cultists.

Zorak Zoran stole Fire and his worshippers can use fire and fire-based magic. They are not unique in this - Argan Argar can use Fire-magics as well, in fact trollish smiths tend to be associated with Argan Argar through either Lodril the Slave or Gustbran the Slave.

I would say that membership in a cult that has stolen fire-magic would outweigh any restrictions in other cults, as long as those restrictions don't come from a mythical loss. So, a Kyger Litor worshipper who also worships Zoran Zoran would be able to get fire-magic through Amanstan because Amanstan holds Zorak Zoran's fire and represents a victory over fire. A Yelmalian who also worships Lodril would not be able to use Fire magic because of the cultic/mythic problems with Yelmalio losing fire, unless he regains his fire-magic on the Hill of Gold or gets abilities through magic items or whatever.

As to membership of a cult to get magical abilities - that is one of the reasons to join a cult. If you want a troll to have fire-magic you either get it from Zorak Zoran or Argan Argar (or possibly Cragspider but that is rarer). If you want a troll to be able to jump then you join Gerak Kag (Late Second Age/Third Age) or one of Gorakiki's cults. It's not really a problem.

Where the problem occurs is when a PC joins a cult to get the magic and then does not abide by cult restrictions or does not roleplay cult membership. In such cases I would set NPC on them to challenge them or to get them excommunicated if they don't follow cult doctrine.

 

[elgrin]

Where the problem occurs is when a PC joins a cult to get the magic and then does not abide by cult restrictions or does not roleplay cult membership. In such cases I would set NPC on them to challenge them or to get them excommunicated if they don't follow cult doctrine.

In extreme cases, you can also revert to the ritual humiliation (from RQ2) of a Spirit of Retribution turning up on the doorstep to have a public word about the backsliding.

elgrin

 

[Rasta]

I doubt whether troll worshippers of ZZ would be excommunicated from Kyger Litor - they are trolls after all.

Multiple worship of ZZ and XU is probably not on the cards, except for UzUz who can pretty do whatever they want if they can justify it.

As to their place in society, ZZ are the brute force of trolls, used when other trolls can't get the job done and where aggression is paramount. Other trolls accept Zorak Zorani without a problem but there is a rivalry with worshippers of Karrg and Kyger Litor's Karrg's Sons as to who is the best troll wargod.

Where you get an organised ZZ cult in an area then it will challenge the Karrg or Argan Argar cultists to see who is the prime wargod. If ZZ wins then the clan will become more ZZ in nature - mobs/gangs of berserker trolls rather than individual warriors in groups or masses of spearmen. The clan will be more aggressive and less tolerant, especially towards traditional enemies such as light or fire/sky cultists.

Zorak Zoran stole Fire and his worshippers can use fire and fire-based magic. They are not unique in this - Argan Argar can use Fire-magics as well, in fact trollish smiths tend to be associated with Argan Argar through either Lodril the Slave or Gustbran the Slave.

I would say that membership in a cult that has stolen fire-magic would outweigh any restrictions in other cults, as long as those restrictions don't come from a mythical loss. So, a Kyger Litor worshipper who also worships Zoran Zoran would be able to get fire-magic through Amanstan because Amanstan holds Zorak Zoran's fire and represents a victory over fire. A Yelmalian who also worships Lodril would not be able to use Fire magic because of the cultic/mythic problems with Yelmalio losing fire, unless he regains his fire-magic on the Hill of Gold or gets abilities through magic items or whatever.

As to membership of a cult to get magical abilities - that is one of the reasons to join a cult. If you want a troll to have fire-magic you either get it from Zorak Zoran or Argan Argar (or possibly Cragspider but that is rarer). If you want a troll to be able to jump then you join Gerak Kag (Late Second Age/Third Age) or one of Gorakiki's cults. It's not really a problem.

Where the problem occurs is when a PC joins a cult to get the magic and then does not abide by cult restrictions or does not roleplay cult membership. In such cases I would set NPC on them to challenge them or to get them excommunicated if they don't follow cult doctrine.

Thanks for the info.

 

[zozotroll]

Playing ZoZo is not for those who want to be the happy life of the party. And almost nobody LIKES you. But just as Uroxi, they like to have you around where things get rough.

Nobody likes paying taxes, but they do like good roads. Nobody likes crazy berzerkers, but they dont like getting violated by Broo either.

 

[soltakss]

Playing ZoZo is not for those who want to be the happy life of the party.

What about those Holy Days, though? Zorak Zorani (at least in RQ2/3) are tithed on their current wealth, so just before the Holy Days, Zorak Zorani go out and spend their spare cash on booze and partying, so you get Slam-Dancing Great Trolls out of their heads on Powzie. They are the life and souls of the party.

 

[zozotroll]

Oh WE have fun certainly, its everybody else who seems to have a problem with us.

And nobody ever seems to want to let the Urixi get to the Whiskey for some reason.