Yet another Battledress debate

[justacaveman]

The armor weakness of Battle Dress is reflected at all TLs. You wouldn't think that TL14 Battle Dress would be vulnerable to a TL7 Assault Rifle, but the maximum potential damage from an Assault Rifle is 28 points of damage in Burst fire. It's not that hard to score Effect +6 if you have time to aim and a couple of other bonuses etc.. If you use Armour-Piercing ammo, the armour will only stop 15 points of damage. Using an assault rifle to do 13 points of damage to a character wearing TL14 Battle Dress that costs 3.5 Mcr is a bit much to swallow. I realise that this is an extreme case, and the shooter could roll bad and only do 7 points of damage with the same Burst. The solution is actually quite simple. DON'T ROLL DAMAGE. Instead, assign a damage value to each weapon (I use 3.5 points per damage die.). This results in the assault rifle having a maximum potential Burst damage of 20 points. With Armour-Piercing ammo the most damage that can penetrate the Battle Dress would be 5 points. Another house rule I have is that armour converts an amount of penetrating damage equal to it's armour rating to temporary stun points (Which are recovered at a rate of 1 point per hour, but otherwise act like normal damage). These house rules make Battle Dress worth the investment.

 

[BP]

Nothing says that MGT tech is directly extrapolatable from modern tech - some things today (in research and military) already exceed MGT TLs! I see no reason BattleDress couldn't be atom thichness and stop any bullet - transmitting the force to ground or into motion (or converting the mass and kinetic energy directly to other forms of energy). Heck, BattleDress could come in a spray can with tiny subatomic self-organizing components for computer, sensors and environmental control... (BattleDress for the Marine on the go! )

But, standard MGT BattleDress isn't this - heck look at the armour on ships - nothing really exotic. As alluded to above, MGT TL advancements follow a different curve than RW. The 'materials science' in MGT is nothing compared to what already exists in some labs (do a little research on LANL ).

To be fair, MGT Core states that it is 'a powered form of combat armour' - not that BattleDress is equivalent to a tank suit. The fact that conventional lower TL, inexpensive weapons can deal damage may seem a little weak (especially given the price) - but then this can generally only happen under non-normal conditions - and nothing says that damage is particularly to the suit - rather to the wearer of the suit. And the suit does have many other advantages - particularly in space (and submersed) environs.

Don't get me wrong - I too think the armour is a bit off - in part because there is a slight chance on non-armour piercing rounds getting through - but that was probably by design. It will stop any single shot from the basic weapons up to a Gauss Rifle. In burst mode the Assault Rifle maxes to 3d6+4 = 22 pts so 4 points of damage could 'get through'. Which doesn't mean the armour was damaged - 4 points of damage can just mean busted ribs or bad contusions.

Shotgun is, to me more effective - 4d6 means that up to 6 points can get through - this bothers me more. Shotgun damage is smaller masses that thus have less penetrating power - more damage to soft tissue, but armour should fair better than to a ballistic impact from a larger mass bullet. But now we are adding more special case handling to combat - which makes it more 'realistic', but less playable.

Personnally, I would have boosted Combat Armour and BattleDress by 6 points (so TL-14 BattleDress is at 24 instead of 18 ) - and made laser rifles a little weaker. I like the idea that BattleDress would then stop a TL-6 rocket launcher completely :shock:, but a grenade could still cause limited damage to the wearer. I would have also added a level of armour between Flak Jacket and Combat Armour (CSC propbably has). (Re: My TU ).

 

[Treebore]

Personally I think it would be easier to say that BD is immune to any ballistic weaponry. They can only be effected by lasers, Plasma, and fusion guns.

That way the low tech punks are in serious trouble when the alien race invades their low tech world, their conventional weaponry will be useless against it. They better be able to upload some super computer virus to cause all the alien ship shields to go down, or something crazy like that.

 

[BP]

Nah - they'll just throw sticky lightning rod arrows - and consult with eewoks

And, of course, there is always the old standby - buckets of cyanoacrylate (aka - superglue)!

 

[apoc527]

Shotgun is, to me more effective - 4d6 means that up to 6 points can get through - this bothers me more. Shotgun damage is smaller masses that thus have less penetrating power - more damage to soft tissue, but armour should fair better than to a ballistic impact from a larger mass bullet. But now we are adding more special case handling to combat - which makes it more 'realistic', but less playable.

I believe shotguns are considered ST (soft target) weapons, so armor Protection is doubled against them. Battledress is basically immune to normal shotguns.

 

[Treebore]

Shotgun is, to me more effective - 4d6 means that up to 6 points can get through - this bothers me more. Shotgun damage is smaller masses that thus have less penetrating power - more damage to soft tissue, but armour should fair better than to a ballistic impact from a larger mass bullet. But now we are adding more special case handling to combat - which makes it more 'realistic', but less playable.

I believe shotguns are considered ST (soft target) weapons, so armor Protection is doubled against them. Battledress is basically immune to normal shotguns.

Even "00"? What about slugs? What is the muzzle velocity of a shotgun versus handguns and rifles? Assault Rifles?

Anywaqys, looking at the composites we have for body armor, and possible body armors in design stages, I am pretty sure Battle Dress will handle ballistic weapons with ease by the time they are invented. So will combat Armor.

I mean look at what we have now. You may get knocked down, badly bruised, cracked and even broken ribs, but as long as your hit in the areas protected by body armor, your going to live.

Considering some of the new composites being created and designed into current body armor, I am sure that if I decide to say, "Ballistic weapons of all types do not work against Battle Dress" I don't think I will be argued with for long. Unless maybe I let them get depleted rounds. Even so, since body armor drains off the kinetic energy of the round as well as be difficult to penetrate, I think such a statement could stand.

 

[The Chef]

but doesn't BD have to be one thing... balanced?

IF your characters go up against a squad of mercs in full battledress, armed only with gauss guns at best, wouldn't you want them to be able to at least damage them??

 

[CosmicGamer]

but doesn't BD have to be one thing... balanced?

IF your characters go up against a squad of mercs in full battledress, armed only with gauss guns at best, wouldn't you want them to be able to at least damage them??

Hmm, I do believe for game playability certain things need to be balanced. Yet, if characters are not suitably equipped (equipment, skills and characteristics) I would want them to be considering their options and not be going into every situation thinking they will be able to succeed.

Balance to me, is that the better the armor is, the more protection it offers. I believe this is reflected, although quite simplistically, in the rules. There are still weapons that cost a fraction of the armors value and can easily take it out.

Could there be a better way? Of course. Will it be as simple? I don't believe so. You probably will have to give up fast simple combat for a slower method with more modifiers, tables, rolls or whatever.

So, has anyone come up with a matrix they would like to post for armor and weapon/ammo type? I know CT had something. Think it's mechanic was to adjust chance to hit and not damage?

The option for someone with very high skill being able to succeed in an almost impossible task is the thing of legend that a group would talk about for years to come. I'm thinking of a ninja like character using brawling skill to cause someone in battledress to fall off a cliff, run into a wall, shoot them self in the foot or somehow instigate damage. So I would like the rare possibility to exist but I would want an average, say skill 2, character to be thinking 'I need to run' not 'I might be able to take this guy out'.

While I don't think battledress should be completely impervious to all 'lower tech' types of damage I think that since it is some of the best armor in the game, it should be quite formidable. Not sure how to make it almost impossible to damage with certain weapons while still allowing a heroic, space opera, cinematic, hit...

 

[BP]

...I believe shotguns are considered ST (soft target) weapons, so armor Protection is doubled against them. Battledress is basically immune to normal shotguns.

That sounds reasonable, although another characteristic to manage during roleplay - what MGT book is that from?

 

[BP]

...I mean look at what we have now. You may get knocked down, badly bruised, cracked and even broken ribs, but as long as your hit in the areas protected by body armor, your going to live.

In the examples given - i.e. burst round from Assault Rifle with max damage (22) that is 6 pts of damage to the weakest BattleDress... unless the character has low, single digit stats for End, Str and Dex - they are gonna live with only minor injuries that they can recoup from in a matter of days with no treatment. (And no body armour today is likely to do that for you under these conditions - plus todays armor isn't self repairing).

As it stands, most lower end weapons cannot touch a BattleDress wearer - and the few that can mostly still can't the majority of the time. I might have set the bar a bit higher - but certainly wouldn't make it invulnerable to ballistic weapons under all circumstances - that's just unrealistic

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Only average damage should be compared. Average damage is a reliable type of damage - top damage will rarely ever happen. An assault rifle achieves max damage only 0.5% of the time, so only 1 in 200 bursts will do 22 points of damage.

So it would take 200 assault rifle armed troops just to hurt (not kill) a BD equipped soldier. Not bad at all, really. Worth a few million.

Average damage for an AR on burstfire is 11+4=15. Doesn't hurt BD. And a +6 modifier is not 'fairly easy' to achieve, at all. Yes, it can be got to with lots of tech and a high initial skill, at short range, but if they have high tech weapon aids, why not allow them to hurt BD, especially if it lets them aim for the vulnerable neck joints. If they get to short range, that BD trooper deserves to get hit.

Remember the assault rifle is not the M16; it can be, but it is also the 2099 US army rifle, whatever that is, at TL9.

The auto pistol is the same at TL5 as it is at TL10, but are we really claiming that the 9mm Luger is just as effective as a Walther P99.

 

[Treebore]

...I mean look at what we have now. You may get knocked down, badly bruised, cracked and even broken ribs, but as long as your hit in the areas protected by body armor, your going to live.

In the examples given - i.e. burst round from Assault Rifle with max damage (22) that is 6 pts of damage to the weakest BattleDress... unless the character has low, single digit stats for End, Str and Dex - they are gonna live with only minor injuries that they can recoup from in a matter of days with no treatment. (And no body armour today is likely to do that for you under these conditions - plus todays armor isn't self repairing).

As it stands, most lower end weapons cannot touch a BattleDress wearer - and the few that can mostly still can't the majority of the time. I might have set the bar a bit higher - but certainly wouldn't make it invulnerable to ballistic weapons under all circumstances - that's just unrealistic

:lol:

Yeah, well I obviously don't see it as unrealistic. I "see it" in Sci Fi books and movies all the time.

Besides, in my games where BD has been used people were not armed with slug throwers, they were armed with laser rifles, FGMP, and PGMP's, not shotguns, etc...

I do allow Gauss guns to work, they are at super high velocity after all. When I was watching that prototype gauss gun being fired a couple of years ago I got all kinds of tinglings and chills. That puppy is NASTY!! If they ever get that thing down sized to being hand carried battle fields are going to become even uglier for fleshy bodies.

 

[Treebore]

For some kick butt Battle Dress possibilities go watch the "haloid" video on you tube.

I would say Halo is TL 14, because they do not have the built in lasers and such, but there are definite grav belt maneuvers in Halo.

 

[tneva82]

So it would take 200 assault rifle armed troops just to hurt (not kill) a BD equipped soldier. Not bad at all, really. Worth a few million.

While meanwhile BD troopers are carrying around weapons incinerating several troopers to burnt crisp at high speed. And if we aren't talking just some bizare lone BD trooper but more like squad they would be walking around they will be carrying atleast one FGMP. That radiation effect is going to cause funny effects as well. Nevermind all the PGMP's rest are carrying.

(plus how on earth you can manage to get 200 troopers firing first? That many will have been seen and engaged long before. I'm pretty sure PGMP and FGMP beats assault rifle in terms of range ;-)

 

[Infojunky]

For some kick butt Battle Dress possibilities go watch the "haloid" video on you tube.

I would say Halo is TL 14, because they do not have the built in lasers and such, but there are definite grav belt maneuvers in Halo.

Nope, no grav on the Halo armor...... Str & End F with power assist...

 

[Treebore]

For some kick butt Battle Dress possibilities go watch the "haloid" video on you tube.

I would say Halo is TL 14, because they do not have the built in lasers and such, but there are definite grav belt maneuvers in Halo.

Nope, no grav on the Halo armor...... Str & End F with power assist...

I am sure that is part of it, but the precise jumping smacks of grav assistance to me. That or it just being CGI rendered.

 

[justacaveman]

My changes DON'T make Battle Dress invulnerable to small arms fire. That was not my goal. However, you had better be using armour-piercing ammo with that Gauss Rifle, .50 cal machinegun, or Anti-tank rifle.

WWI tanks had armour with an average thickness of 12mm (some less), and were IMMUNE to small arms fire smaller than .50 cal. And contrary to some posts on this thread there is no significant difference in the ammunition used in WWI and now. There are some newer types of ammo available now, but these aren't commonly used (ball ammunition is still the same). Battle Dress isn't supposed to be invulnerable, but if it can't cross a WWI Dead Man's Land between the trenches, it's useless.

It IS easy to score +6 effect with an attack. A sniping character with DEX 9 (+1), Gun Combat (Rifle) 2, 1 round to aim (+3) will score a +6 Effect almost 50% of the time. This is with no Tech aids at all. Any PC who likes to snipe WILL have a higher DEX, higher skill, and some Tech aids (At least another +3 in bonuses, and probably more.) Achieving a +6 Effect is easy for a PC.

 

[Treebore]

Well at some point BD will become immune, whether that is at TL 15 or TL 21 is all that has to be decided. At TL 21 it will likely be due to personal body shields finally being developed.

 

[BP]

Good point justacaveman - I forgot about adding effect to damage! (Doh!)

Of course, by the rules any hit could do damage -

Core[/i] pg 66"]A hit with Effect 6+ always inflicts at least one point of damage, regardless of the target's armour.

(Emphasis mine.)

So lets get together that skilled band of sharpshooters with SlingShot-4 and a couple packs of bubble gum - we're a go'n BattleDress a-hunt'n! :lol:

The rules are by no means perfect - especially when applied without exception. A good Referee will adjust - overcoming extreme effect values by using situational modifiers (such as applying a TL Parity modifier when attacking BattleDress with flint lock pistols, or Dispersed Ammo with shotguns...).

Of course, some players will argue against such rationalism - just begging to be attacked by the bubble-gum shooters (see how they like the taste of that irrationalism! (Tooty-Fruity) :twisted

 

[justacaveman]

I want Battle Dress to be immune to most low tech small arms. High tech small arms should be more effective but still have difficulty penetrating the armour. Heavy weapons should be the only weapons truly effective against Battle Dress. There needs to be a reason that the Imperium would shell out a minimum of 2 Mcr per suit.