Wrath of the Ancients Uplift Research

[Gavain]

I have just been revisiting the uplift process from Wrath of the Ancients. I only just realised that a team research project gives 2D + Effect RI for the group, whilst a solo research project gives 1D+8 + Effect RI. This means that it is much more effective to do individual research as you gain a minimum of 9 RI compared with 2 RI for teamwork. This seems counterintuitive to me. Can anyone suggest to me why it should be this way?

 

[ottarrus]

I can see your confusion about the mechanics. It seems a little off to me too.
All I can think of is that sometimes the creative or discovery process is best done with one mind's effort rather than as a group. Group processes often wander off into trivialities or digressions, whereas a single effort can often stay on point better.
The other side of that coin is that a single mind will often miss the important part of the process while obsessing over minor details.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Looks like a typo or just an error that was not caught.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Looks like a typo or just an error that was not caught.

The OP could post this in the Chat with Mongoose forum and ask what it is supposed to be.

 

[rinku]

Looks like a typo to me as well. Even if the team task was benefitting from the Group Task rule to get a higher effect.

But, by any chance are the team members summing individual effects towards the total? That could explain it, if Scientist Solo is getting 1D+8+effect and Team Threesome is getting 2D+effect1+effect2+effect3.

But that gets back to them being able to do 3D+24+effect1+effect2+effect3 by not collaborating.

Unless there's some other rule involved, such as group research having a lower difficulty?

 

[chibiko]

I have just been revisiting the uplift process from Wrath of the Ancients. I only just realised that a team research project gives 2D + Effect RI for the group, whilst a solo research project gives 1D+8 + Effect RI. This means that it is much more effective to do individual research as you gain a minimum of 9 RI compared with 2 RI for teamwork. This seems counterintuitive to me. Can anyone suggest to me why it should be this way?

My reading of the teamwork approach is that all members of the team get the full 2D + Effect RI result rather than it being divided among them (p.167).

 

[Gavain]

My reading of the teamwork approach is that all members of the team get the full 2D + Effect RI result rather than it being divided among them (p.167).

I like that. More variable but multiplied by the members of the team. Also has the advantage that all the travellers stay with the same level of RI.

 

[Sigtrygg]

What if there are ten of you in the group...

 

[chibiko]

What if there are ten of you in the group...

I don't think the number of team members would make a difference.

My interpretation of RAW is that regardless of whether there were two members or twenty in the team, each team member would get the same RI, which is the result of 2D + Effect of the skill check.
If that skill check was the final one of a skill chain, then the final check only receives a bonus DM from the prior check, which would be a maximum of +3.

That's because each check in a chain only provides a bonus DM to the next check in the chain - the bonus DMS are not summed across the chain (Core Rulebook 2022, p.63). That means that the maximum possible additional bonus DM is +3, regardless of how many checks are made in the chain or how many team members there are.

Unless I've been doing it wrong...

 

[MasterGwydion]

2D6 = 12 or Effect 3 max
2D6+3=15 or Effect 6 max
2D6+6=18 or Effect 9 max
2D6+9=21 or Effect 12 max
etc...
(Obviously, I just used max possible rolls, so not realistic, but mathematically possible.)

 

[rinku]

I don't think the number of team members would make a difference.

My interpretation of RAW is that regardless of whether there were two members or twenty in the team, each team member would get the same RI, which is the result of 2D + Effect of the skill check.
If that skill check was the final one of a skill chain, then the final check only receives a bonus DM from the prior check, which would be a maximum of +3.

That's because each check in a chain only provides a bonus DM to the next check in the chain - the bonus DMS are not summed across the chain (Core Rulebook 2022, p.63). That means that the maximum possible additional bonus DM is +3, regardless of how many checks are made in the chain or how many team members there are.

Unless I've been doing it wrong...

That's how it works for a pure task chain, with one task being completed before the next one can start.

With the Working Together rule (p.63, a bit further on) - where everyone is working on the task together - the helpers use their own effect to generate task chain modifiers, which are all added to the leader's roll.

Now, this particular research rule appears to be its own thing, as it's generating points. I'd not assume outright that the Core Book stuff applies. I don't have the text, so I can only comment in general.

 

[chibiko]

That's how it works for a pure task chain, with one task being completed before the next one can start.

With the Working Together rule (p.63, a bit further on) - where everyone is working on the task together - the helpers use their own effect to generate task chain modifiers, which are all added to the leader's roll.

Now, this particular research rule appears to be its own thing, as it's generating points. I'd not assume outright that the Core Book stuff applies. I don't have the text, so I can only comment in general.

Good point.

 

[chibiko]

Good point.

However, I'm not convinced that the Working Together rule would apply, given the example given of forcing a door open. That seems to be different to conducting research as a team over a longer period of time.

Although, granted, it is shamelessly self-serving.

If the task chain rule applies as I suggested, then the maximum possible RI for a team member would be 2D6+9=21 or Effect 12 max (as calculated by MasterGwydion), and for a solo researcher it would be 1D+8+Effect=20 (or 23 if a task chain is used).

That's close enough for skiffle.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I had similar questions; especially as regards the contradictory 'Progress on an Uplift Path' stuff on pg 44 and pg 167. (https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/wrath-of-the-ancients-errata.124409/#post-995024) Please let me know what you get to work.