Wraith Recon, and 4e, what is it and what is the GSL?

[AKAramis]

Phil: chill.

In the US, a term can be trademarked, not just a logo. The term Dungeons & Dragons® is a registered trademark of WOTC, who acquired it with TSR.

Mayfair was ordered to stop using the terms "Advanved Dungeons & Dragons" and "Dungeons and Dragons", as they were trademarks of TSR. (They were, however, able to republish the same books with "for use with any fantasy role playing game", and were able to include D&D compatible stats.

Star Fleet Battles™ is also such a trademark of text, in this case Amarillo Design bureau's. Mr. Schutte got injuncted specifically because, in the US, you may not use someone else's trademarks to sell your own product without a license. (I read the injuction order.)

It's VERY on point. THat there was also the issue of Trade Secret is immaterial to the federal judge ordering product not be released, as that is a state court issue. (Same company, two suits, two different courts.)

Trademark may be very different in the Commonweath nations... but both WOTC and KenzerCo are in the US.... and by the prior litigations, Dave is taking a big risk.... because what he's doing is EXACTLY what Mayfair was doing: using someone else's trademarked term to indicate compatibility and thus boost sales.

 

[aspqrz]

Phil: chill.

Indeed. I am.

In the US, a term can be trademarked, not just a logo. The term Dungeons & Dragons® is a registered trademark of WOTC, who acquired it with TSR.

Which is now, and has been since the beginning of this discussion, completely, totally, utterly, 100% irrelevant

The CD box of Serif Pageplus, which I have mentioned, notes that Pageplus X3 the minimum requirements are ... amongst other things ...

Microsoft Windows (R)

And goes on to say Microsoft Windows and the Windows logo are registered trademarks of Microsoft Corportation

And, guess what, Microsoft has never, ever, sued anyone who's said "This program requires Microsoft Windows to run" ... ever.

They might, I suppose, have sued some moron who used the Windows logo without their permission, which Serif haven't

You are still talking pineapples while I have repeatedly noted that I am not.

Are you a lawyer? Specialising in IP law?

No?

Well. The principle of K&Co is and the principals of several other large companies who have noted they will be doing the same as K&Co (privately, so far, but its no particular secret if you ask around) have consulted IP lawyers.

The consensus of every single one?

Nominative use is OK and doesn't infringe on Trademark any more than Serif software (or any other software house that states that a requirement for its software is that it run under Microsoft Windows) and their statements do.

I suppose you could know more than the experts, but, on the whole, I will stay with their considered opinions.

Mayfair was ordered to stop using the terms "Advanved Dungeons & Dragons" and "Dungeons and Dragons", as they were trademarks of TSR.

No. They were ordered to stop using the Trademarks, not to stop stating that their products were "compatible with" ... which is why Judges Guild won. JG weren't using the trademarks, merely stating compatability.

Again. Repeatedly, you are referring to pineapples and I am not.

Star Fleet Battles™ is also such a trademark of text, in this case Amarillo Design bureau's.

So what? It is irrelevant. The case was never tested and, unless the idiot in question was actually using the TM rather than the "compatible with" that is not now, nor has it ever been, what I have said.0

Mr. Schutte got injuncted specifically because, in the US, you may not use someone else's trademarks to sell your own product without a license. (I read the injuction order.)

Which is irrelevant. And repeating it doesn't make it relevant, it merely shows that you don't grasp the law.

Commenting that your product, like Pageplus X3, "is compatible with Microsoft Windows" is NOT infringing trademarks. Putting the Windows logo on the box WOULD be. But Serif merely do the former, not the latter, so it is obvious that your point is, and always has been, irrelevant.

K&Co are not using the DnD 4e logo, which would be a breach of TM. I never, at any point, said they did ... and you keep coming back to it, even tho completely, totally, and utterly irrrelevant.

See http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?products_id=625

Which states on the cover (click on the enlargement) ... "For use with fourth Edition Dungeons & Dragons (R)" exactly as Serif notes for Pageplus with regards to Windows.

Then read ...

http://robertsongames.com/news/kenzer-co-dd-and-trademarks

... from which I quote ...

Nominative Use, also known as “trademark fair use” allows the use of a trademark as a reference to describe the product (eg. “All Parason Flexor and Gillette Sensor handles are compatible with this blade”) or to compare it to their own product (Pepsi and Coke).

Then it goes on to say that

David Kenzer, the president of Kenzer & Company, is also a lawyer specializing in Trademark and IP law.

I suppose he could be "some random fool" (tm), but, on the whole, I will go with his expert statement.

It's VERY on point.

No, unless you have expertise, I suppose, as a Judge in US IP law cases?

Unless you do, I'll stick with Dave Kenzer and a number of others who say the exact opposite, and who have put their money where their mouth is, which I would feel is indicative of the truth of the matter.

Phil

 

[Monkey_Bloke]

On a completely non-GSL note, is it me or does the cover say Wrath Recon, missing the i in Wraith?
Being a fan of the Ghost Recon video games, I like the sound of this though

 

[lastbesthope]

Yup, it does appear that the 'i' is missing.

LBH

 

[aspqrz]

Yup, it does appear that the 'i' is missing.

Oh dear.

As we all know, internet flame wars always descend into spelling flames, sooner or later :lol:

Of course, we're all far to civilised for that here on the Mongoose forums

Still ... Oh dear ...

Phil

 

[lastbesthope]

Well with what I've heard from others of the 4e licencing arrangements it seems awfully restrictive on the third party publishers, and annoyingly force selling for the customers.

Not as good as the way it was in 3.X anyway.

LBH

 

[B_Steele]

Yeah, the mock-up for the title is missing the 'I'...



I have already informed the appropriate parties to repair the situation.

-Bry

 

[B_Steele]

Being a fan of the Ghost Recon video games, I like the sound of this though

Yeah, that is kinda the idea that we are rolling with. A completely fleshed out fantasy world that someone could easily play their own commonplace D&D 4E game within...but the rules and missions based on the players taking on the role of a fantasy covert-ops team trying to save the kingdom.

I'm having a blast with it so far, and if past products are to speak of current trends...the more fun I have with a project, the better the final results are for the fans.

Stay tuned...

-Bry

 

[DigitalMage]

Example: Green Ronin can't do 4E guide to freeport without ditching EVERYTHING ELSE that bares the freeport name (which includes stuff since their first product).

Technically they would have to dicth the d20 Freeport Companion and the True20 Companion, they would also have to pull all past d20 scenarios. The Pirates Guide to Freeport itself and other non OGL Freeport stuff could stay - so for example the Savage Worlds Freeport Companion could stay as that doesn't use the OGL.

 

[SnowDog]

While I am not that interested in D&D I was still intrigued enough to get the new PHB. Without proper read through and playing it is kind of hard to say how powerful 1st level PCs will be but I assume that they are not all that tough.

Given that the Wraith Recon is something comparable to Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon I began to wonder if the beginning characters in this setting will be higher level than 1st.

Anyway, I read what Matt wrote at Planet Mongoose but I really like to learn more about this.

Thanks.

 

[B_Steele]

Not higher than 1st level...but definitely equipped with some of the best state of the art "tactica arcana".

-Bry

 

[SnowDog]

OK, thanks for the info! Apparently characters rely on their magic items a lot at least at first.

Anyway as military scifi is a rare bird military fantasy is even more rare. Actually so far I know only Black Company and thus I am quite thrilled about this project.

I'm looking forward to see more...

 

[Allandaros]

I'm quite psyched to see what the interior of the book will hold...but I'm going to have to wrap the Wraith Recon cover in a brown paper bag or something.

 

[B_Steele]

but I'm going to have to wrap the Wraith Recon cover in a brown paper bag or something.

I'm curious...why is this?

 

[Allandaros]

I'm honestly not a big fan of the cover art at all. The idea of fantasy special ops is a kickass one, but I'd like a bit more fantasy than M-16s getting replaced with crossbows. It looks far too modern (scoped sights on a crossbow?), jarringly out of place (camouflaged chainmail?) and altogether Not My Cup Of Tea.

(See also my comments here, over at RPG.net.)

 

[lastbesthope]

The way I see it, technology just developed differently in that setting, no doubt in part due to the existence of magic.

LBH

 

[Allandaros]

Sure. I can buy that equivalents to things like nightvision goggles, flashbangs, and all those other cool things you find in Rainbow Six developed using magical technology (magitech?).

But the key word here is equivalents. Not direct analogues that look exactly the same.

As with all things, your mileage may vary. If you think the cover looks kickass, inspiring, and seven kinds of fun, more power to you. But it looks just the opposite to me. Sorry Mongoose, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

 

[lastbesthope]

Why not look the same, if they're to fulfill the same purpose and be used in the same manner, a difference in technological/magical development won't alter the appearance too much. Ergonomics is still ergonomics, whether it's steam powered, fusion reactors or magic.

THere's some oft quoted 'law' about the fact that any suitably advanced technology is indstinguishable from magic. There is a corollorary to that law that goes along the lines of "The product of any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from art", going along the line of reasoning that, once you overcome the technological (or magical I suppose in this case) and manufacturing difficulties of a product, you make things that look good.

But as you say, YMMV.

LBH

 

[Allandaros]

Well, because the base that's developing them isn't the same. Given that the night vision goggles in our world are based on lenses and electronic enhancement of vision, I would think that they would look MUCH different than ones developed through magic. For instance, the magic ones might just be a sort of gauze bound about one's head, enchanted with a light-enhancement spell, or even an enchantment in the helmet!

Regardless, I think that we might have to agree to disagree on this one, LBH. The whole argument is a subjective one; I've made my point, you've made yours, and I don't think we're going to come to any agreement here. My gripe is with the aesthetic presented, not at ALL with the main thrust of the book, and I don't want to keep belaboring the issue and come across as essentially saying "RARGH DIS SUCKS," when that's not at all how I feel.

Oh, before I forget:

Anyway as military scifi is a rare bird military fantasy is even more rare. Actually so far I know only Black Company and thus I am quite thrilled about this project.

For more military fantasy, see Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion, especially the first book. No special forces, low-magic world, but still a good read.

 

[SnowDog]

Oh, before I forget:

For more military fantasy, see Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion, especially the first book. No special forces, low-magic world, but still a good read.

Ah, thanks for the hint! I will check this out next time I visit my bookstore. I hope I can find the book there.

Personally I liked the cover art and consept art but like you said it's a matter of taste so that's it

Then another question about the setting.

As this is a military setting have you changed the names of various classes? The first thing that comes to mind is cleric (to medic). I am sure that I have missed some point why I not to rename.