Would you convict Delenn of War Crimes?

[Agamemnon_B5]

Thanks.

Personally, I think the biggest mistake was to send the military in the first place and/or not assign a first contact specialist.

Placing such a delicate matter in the hands of an organization coming of a War that has just placed it on the mantle of apparently unbeatable foes was stupid. Ultimately I blame the incident on the high and might generals and politicians that probably never been outside their office (even during the Dilgar War) and failed to listen to the Centauri, a race that had a space empire when humans were slugging it out with sword.

 

[Shadow Queen]

np, part of my Earth-Minbari war artical for ACTA

 

[tneva82]

If this had not happened then even though Delenn had already decided they were doing wrong she would have still sat back and let all of humanity be destroyed instead of showing some backbone and strength of character and saying ENOUGH!

And how you suppose she could have stopped it by then? War had taken life of it's own. Minbari wanted vengeance. She was just one of the NINE members of grey council. She wasn't even most dominant of them. She could not just say "stop this"! Not without some bloody good reason to convince rest of them.

BTW incidently without Delenn's decision we would have been all doomed and Shadows would have wiped us out in next shadow war so your war crime actually saved humans(and rest of the races) :lol:

 

[tneva82]

I am not sure how you call that trigger happy. Or are you going by the stupid statements of minbari-ophile Sheridan?

The fellow had proven himself to be trigger happy before as well...Very unstable captain who shouldn't have been put to first contact situation even if he was only captain left in whole EA.

The Grey Council ship was OUTSIDE Minbari space

And EA ships were outside EA space. Doesn't give them reason to attack Minbari capital.

 

[Shadow Queen]

She all so tryed to stop the war as well.

 

[Da Boss]

BTW incidently without Delenn's decision we would have been all doomed and Shadows would have wiped us out in next shadow war so your war crime actually saved humans(and rest of the races) :lol:

hmm maybe, maybe not - depends how the war went - if Earth was strong enough they could have survived, prospered and perhaps even supplanted the Drakh as favoured by them. The same for the Centauri.

True without the main cast of B5 the Minbari might have eneded up fighting a second war against Earth but its a closer run thing with shadowtech ships like the Hunter and Shadow Omega.........

lots of possibilities as to what might have happened.............

 

[tneva82]

if Earth was strong enough they could have survived, prospered and perhaps even supplanted the Drakh as favoured by them. The same for the Centauri.

As if. No younger race could stand between shadows and vorlons and the big headsup match between the two was inevitable.

Yeah shadows might have favoured earth but _vorlons_ would have come in with their big bad planet killer sooner or later and BOOM!!! Good bye Earth. Good bye all Earth planets. Good bye pretty much everybody as the 2 giants go all haywire with eachother.

 

[Da Boss]

If they had got to that point - wasn't the esculation to full war due to Sheridan et al otherwise it would have been the usual story between the two chess masters?

More likely it would have been a EA v Minbari, rest of the galaxy v Centauri war as proxies - the B5 team changed the rules

 

[tneva82]

If they had got to that point - wasn't the esculation to full war due to Sheridan et al otherwise it would have been the usual story between the two chess masters?

At most quickened it a bit. The two had been heading toward exterminating other(or rather their ideology) long time now.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm maybe I think they may have waited a few more cycles - the Vorlons seemed very reluctant for it to esculate until that unspecified date "when they are ready" and the shadows were still very sleepy

I thought the point was that if B5 has not interfered the whole galaxy would have kept being manuipulated by the two powers for thousands of years at least - maybe worng though.

I suppose the fact the Vorlons kept cheating and breaking the rules (ironically ) may have meant a quicker conflict.........

 

[tneva82]

Hmm maybe I think they may have waited a few more cycles

And that would be better...how? Armageddon now, armageddon tomorrow. Armageddon either way. Much better for the cycle to be stopped now with no armageddon

 

[Da Boss]

Agreed - just saying that in the short term - Earth might have done very (or not!) and had to wait a few thousand years to be blown up - anyway doesn't Earth keep being trashed anyway - Drakh, Centauri - others?

Same with the Centauri - could have been either destroyed totally by the League or others or became one again a vast power...........or not!

As I said lots of possible outcomes (good and bad) and changes

 

[Aramanthus]

You can do those changes in your own games. Some of us are very HAPPY the way it was in the TV series!

 

[Da Boss]

Actually I was not advocating change in anyone's games _ was just saying the outcome without Delenn was not neccesairly fixed..........not that it really matters anyway.........

 

[Aramanthus]

The outcome without Delenn? I'm sorry she was there! The outcome is set in stone. There are no official changes coming like you are suggesting. Therefore it'd have to be in your own private game. In my game I'm keeping the storyline as it was from the show. No what if's about silly topics like this thread.

 

[Da Boss]

I am sorry - did you read the title of this thread ? It was obvous that it was not something that would or indeed could of happened - so why be surprised by its content - perhaps you may have been better simply ignoring it and moving on to threads that you are actually interested in.

I was actually replying to a statment made by another forum member - We had a (hopefully lighthearted) small discussion on it which in no way impacts on your game etc.

tneva82 wrote:

BTW incidently without Delenn's decision we would have been all doomed and Shadows would have wiped us out in next shadow war so your war crime actually saved humans(and rest of the races)

Why would I want "official" changes - that is nonsense - as you said I can do what the hell I like in my game /s, as can you - as silly or not as I want.........

BY the way Matt also annouced in the state of the Mongoose that they are looking at a "darker" alt universe which I presume will not follow every part of the show to the letter..........

Lastly If I wanted to be bloody picky I could say that there is a possible / potential alt universe in the show - I am sure you remember the episode where the Shadows destroy B5. It does not happen - but it could have done as shown in the Show!

 

[Hellebore]

First, I think people are applying way too many Human moral values to the Mimbari.

Why is it wrong what Delenn did? Because in a Galactic, universal primal proton way it was? Because the universe is made of moralitytrons and she used too many anti-moralitytrons in her decision?

No.

It is the height of egocentricity to claim that another sentient race should adhere to OUR morality - we can't even bloody agree on our own morality amongst our own species.

Another thing is psychology - why should the mimbari think that gunports open is the wrong thing to do? Why should they use human traditions?

Dukat knew more about humanity than anyother Mimbari, he may have known their psychology was different and that was why he disagreed with the gun ports being open.


Can anyone honestly say if Air Force One was shot down because it was in restricted airspace/caused trouble that America WOULDN'T go to war?

Of course not - no matter the reason for AFO's activities, anyone that kills the president is evil and must be fought.

September 11 wasn't even an attack on America's government, and yet America went to war.

How can you possibly think that the Mimbari going to war was any less or more right than any other war instigated by any other people?

So list the facts:

The Grey Council was secretly outside Mimbari space (obviously not FAR outside Mimbari space, because the Human ships were supposed to be hanging around the border)

The Earth Captain moved in closer than he should have because he wanted medals

The mimbari saw him coming closer and scanned him (as any ship being approached by an unkown target will do)

They had their flags raised (ie their gunports open) - for all we know having your gun ports closed is a sign of agression amongst the mimbari.

Why is it that everything the mimbari did is considered stupid? Because poeple are applying HUMAN psychology and morals to them.

To the mimbari gun ports open is a GOOD thing, to us it is bad. Why is our way any more right than theirs? Why should we blame them for something that in their culture is fine, but in ours is not?

The mimbari weren't intruding on human territory, the humans were intruding on mimbari. Why should the humans' morality and values be those used in this situation?

What if mimbari doctrine is to 'roll over' on your back to show your belly when scanned by someone? They would have been just as confused when the humans didn't do THAT as the humans were when they opened their gun ports.


WWII - America and the allies perpetrated some amazing acts on their enemies - they didn't get tried for warcrimes. Why? They won.

The mimbari surrendered, but they had all the military power. Earth had a surrender in name only. Thus the mimbari won, and had absolutely no intentions of being subject to earth law.

Would anyone here want to be subject to Mimbari law?

The captain that instigated the encounter (because he DID instigate it) didn't even die in the battle - was HE put on war crimes for killing the leader of the Mimbari empire?

Did the mimbari push the matter? Did they demand he be sent to Mimbar for trial?


Hellebore

 

[Shadow Queen]

he was killed 3 months after the death of the Minbari Council leader Dukhat in Aughast 24th 2245 at a place called Noctal Spacedock. In the Jericho System.

 

[Natxomann]

The captain that instigated the encounter (because he DID instigate it) didn't even die in the battle - was HE put on war crimes for killing the leader of the Mimbari empire?

Did the mimbari push the matter? Did they demand he be sent to Mimbar for trial?

In the ItB novel , the EA government sued for peace , shortly after the war began , and offered him to the Minbari to judge him for firing first and killing Dukhat (in fact they were offering him to the Minbari as a sacrificial lamb , in fact as a scapegoat to avoid the war with the Minbari , period) , but the Minbari were so enraged (and the warriors were having so good a time killing humans) , that they rejected the offer .

he was killed 3 months after the death of the Minbari Council leader Dukhat in Aughast 24th 2245 at a place called Noctal Spacedock. In the Jericho System.

In the novel , he killed himself with a PPG after seeing the effects of his "medal hunt" (i.e. a war with a superior foe that crushed the EA fleets easyly and didn't take prisoners) .

 

[Timestheus]

First, I think people are applying way too many Human moral values to the Mimbari.

Why is it wrong what Delenn did? Because in a Galactic, universal primal proton way it was? Because the universe is made of moralitytrons and she used too many anti-moralitytrons in her decision?

No.

It is the height of egocentricity to claim that another sentient race should adhere to OUR morality - we can't even bloody agree on our own morality amongst our own species.

Another thing is psychology - why should the mimbari think that gunports open is the wrong thing to do? Why should they use human traditions?

Dukat knew more about humanity than anyother Mimbari, he may have known their psychology was different and that was why he disagreed with the gun ports being open.


Can anyone honestly say if Air Force One was shot down because it was in restricted airspace/caused trouble that America WOULDN'T go to war?

Of course not - no matter the reason for AFO's activities, anyone that kills the president is evil and must be fought.

September 11 wasn't even an attack on America's government, and yet America went to war.

How can you possibly think that the Mimbari going to war was any less or more right than any other war instigated by any other people?

So list the facts:

The Grey Council was secretly outside Mimbari space (obviously not FAR outside Mimbari space, because the Human ships were supposed to be hanging around the border)

The Earth Captain moved in closer than he should have because he wanted medals

The mimbari saw him coming closer and scanned him (as any ship being approached by an unkown target will do)

They had their flags raised (ie their gunports open) - for all we know having your gun ports closed is a sign of agression amongst the mimbari.

Why is it that everything the mimbari did is considered stupid? Because poeple are applying HUMAN psychology and morals to them.

To the mimbari gun ports open is a GOOD thing, to us it is bad. Why is our way any more right than theirs? Why should we blame them for something that in their culture is fine, but in ours is not?

The mimbari weren't intruding on human territory, the humans were intruding on mimbari. Why should the humans' morality and values be those used in this situation?

What if mimbari doctrine is to 'roll over' on your back to show your belly when scanned by someone? They would have been just as confused when the humans didn't do THAT as the humans were when they opened their gun ports.


WWII - America and the allies perpetrated some amazing acts on their enemies - they didn't get tried for warcrimes. Why? They won.

The mimbari surrendered, but they had all the military power. Earth had a surrender in name only. Thus the mimbari won, and had absolutely no intentions of being subject to earth law.

Would anyone here want to be subject to Mimbari law?

The captain that instigated the encounter (because he DID instigate it) didn't even die in the battle - was HE put on war crimes for killing the leader of the Mimbari empire?

Did the mimbari push the matter? Did they demand he be sent to Mimbar for trial?


Hellebore

The Minbari have enough of a moral code in their society to think that the worst possible crime is the murdering of one Minbari by another Minbari.

So to them murder of each other is at least wrong. Also they have been in space for thousands of years and worked with the Vorlons and other races so one cannot argue they dont know how to work with other species.

The Minbari knew they were overboard, they just didnt care enough to stop until a convenient excuse came along.

Makes you wonder how many other races out there said hello to the Minbari in not the perfectly proper way and were exterminated for it.


BTW - Even their own leader Dukat who knew nothing about humanity knew gun-ports open was a dumb idea.