Would you convict Delenn of War Crimes?

[Da Boss]

yes true both of you - mistakes on both sides but the question discusses war crimes not if the war is justified

(lets face this is all a bit of wierd argument )

Do you think that the planned and attempted genocide of a entire race is a war crime? I think that it the crux of it?

So so many ifs and maybes - like when is this judged and who by.........

prefer to blame the Vorlons - but then I am way too pro Shadow to be any way impartial...................... :lol:

 

[Timestheus]

The EA captain fired AFTER his ship was almost completely paralyzed and the alien ship was turning towards his now paralyzed ship with weapons open. I am not sure how you call that trigger happy. Or are you going by the stupid statements of minbari-ophile Sheridan?

By Sheridan's statements while he was refusing the XO position on the ship, and by the captain's statements during the battle. And frankly, during first contact, you never shoot, no matter what. You are placed in that position because you are expendable. They made that clear when Sheridan was sent to meet with a representative of the Minbari to try to end the war, he was chosen primarily because he was expendable. You don't fire on an unknown alien species no matter what. Better to die and lose your whole command than to possibly put your whole species in the position that that captain did, in fact, put humanity into.

BTW, the sensors most certainly would be considered an attack. In deep space your life depends on the proper functioning of your computers that do things like run your life support, control your ships reactor, ETC ETC. How does anyone on the EA ship know the reactor wasnt about to run wild or the life support system shut down. For that matter how does anyone know if the big nasty well armed ship turning towards them isnt about to open fire while you can barely move if at all?

They don't, but see above. You're not on first contact to start a war, so you don't start shooting no matter the provocation.

The EA ships could barely detect the Minbari ships and you expect them to be able to read open but powered down on the Minbari weapons?

Yes, and it's canon that they could. Delenn, in the episode with Branmer's body, tells them (and I'm paraphrasing here, if anyone has an exact quote please feel free to update me) "Their weapons are not armed. If you'll scan the vessel you'll see they are not targeting you" or something to that effect. C&C confirms this. We also learn that B5 uses the same targeting and scanning systems as the EA used during the war, so...yes, they could have assessed the lack of threat correctly, but chose to open fire first.

The Grey Council ship was OUTSIDE Minbari space so it doesnt mean squat the you were effectively attacking their capital. That is a pointless strawman when the council goes wandering.

Pointless that they killed the head of the government while he was on an inspection tour? You're telling me that if, say, the Prime Minister of Australia was murdered while in, say, South Carolina, Australia would just shrug and say "Well, he shouldn't have been there in the first place, that's not our territory"? The death of any beloved leader is going to cause a strong reaction, and the assassination of a beloved leader is, historically, a reason one group goes to war. Genocide isn't a solution, of course, but you can't possibly try to argue that going to war was an overreaction.

Yes one vote. She is the only one though that we hear say commit genocide and she does it because her sugar-daddy was just killed. If nothing else that proves she is a complete raving lunatic with major mental issues. You kill my love I am probably going to put you in a grave, I am not though then going to turn around and hunt down every member of your extended family and murder them.

I'm trying to stick to canon and to ignore the pointless hyperbole, but it's tough...they weren't romantically linked, she was his star student...and yes, losing your cool is a defense, unfortunately. Look into something like "extreme emotional distress" or "temporary insanity". In one moment she voted "no mercy" and later regretted it, and did everything she could to derail the war without sacrificing her own society in the bargain.

Everyone including Sheridan was a complete moron for just forgiving and finding every excuse to say what Delenn did was ok. She butchers millions of your species but hey she is great in bed so all is forgiven?!?

First off, NO ONE KNOWS. Lennier knows, that's it, and he doesn't even like humans that much. In fact, she even tried to keep Lennier from finding out by asking him to stay behind when she went into the Dreaming, in the episode where we discover all this. So no one forgave her anything because they didn't know she was the deciding vote.

Second, she was good in bed, sacrificed her place on the ruling body to babysit humanity until the shadow war, was willing to give up her life for her people repeatedly (and other peoples, for that matter), was a major reason the Shadows and Vorlons didn't wipe out all life in that particular galaxy, was a child of prophecy, related to Valen, showed more compassion than any other character on the show (with the possible exception of Vir), knitted the disparate League races into a coalition with Sheridan's help, and eventually built a stable, multi-species intergalactic government that lasted as a force of good for hundreds of years...so yeah, she made a mistake in her youth and in the heat of passion. The show tries to make it clear that she atoned for it.

I saw nothing in the show that demonstrated that the Vorlons had more manipulated the Minbari than anyone else. Humans saw Gabriel the Arch-Angel when they looked up Kosh. Earth has telepaths like Minbari. Sounds like equal messing to me.

Then you're not paying close enough attention. There was a Vorlon In Dukhat's chambers. A Vorlon was ACTIVELY giving advice to the head of the Minbari government. That's even more manipulation than the Shadows, who at least engage in second hand manipulation of governments through their agents. It's probably a violation of the rules of engagement, which is why it was done in such absolute secrecy.

The Vorlons knew full well who Valen was (it's not mentioned directly, but you can't convince me they didn't scan Sinclair when he told them about the Valen thing.) so they knew about the war, and knew what it'd take to make sure B4 ended up there to help them. The Great Machine, time travel, Valen, the Triluminary, all that was set up with the Vorlon's help (we see Valen flanked by two vorlons when he introduces himself to the Minbari, after all). (Which, by the way, means the Vorlons also knew all about the war but didn't bother to interfere since it worked out fine with only a few million dead humans)

Kosh set Delenn on her path of prophecy. That alone should tell you how programmed the Minbari are and how the Vorlons have been manipulating them.

Kosh and Delenn are shown in conference and conversation more than once early on, implying a greater connection than any other race has.

The Vorlons are willing to help the Minbari build the White Star fleet. Considering they are lords of order, there's no way they'd let that technology out of their control unless they thought the Minbari were firmly in hand. It's only the humans that tipped the scales in the wrong direction, not the Minbari.

I could go on, but the point is no other race shared so many subservient ties to the Vorlons as the Minbari.

BTW, it is pretty obvious that Delenn considered herself guilty of war crimes and spent the entire show doing penance. She threw herself into every possible danger in an attempt to atone for what she did. The most obvious example was the race that was dying of the species wide plague. Only Delenn and Lennier went in to help. I doubt they were the only Minbari on the entire station so it wasnt just Minbari good nature that made her decide to help. It was guilt that pushed her to do everything possible to make up for it.

Yes, of course. That's one of the core principles of her character. As I said, the whole show is about mistakes, consequences, atonement and redemption. She also, however, learned from it and learned to make the principled stand, no matter what the cost to herself, as we learn from her bout with the Inquisitor. She changed over time. And since no one knew about her involvement in the war, well she was free to change and grow, which, and I hate to harp on it but it is the most important point here, was the point of the entire series.

Your first contact loses all its credance when you see that Earth Force sent a fairly decent sized and well armed group of warships on this mission.

If First Contact makes you expendable and you are never to open fire then you send ships with lots of armor, lots of speed, good jammers, etc etc so if need be it can run. You do not send a front line battleship which a Hyperion was at that time in the EA Navy.

 

[Timestheus]

The EA captain fired AFTER his ship was almost completely paralyzed and the alien ship was turning towards his now paralyzed ship with weapons open. I am not sure how you call that trigger happy. Or are you going by the stupid statements of minbari-ophile Sheridan?

By Sheridan's statements while he was refusing the XO position on the ship, and by the captain's statements during the battle. And frankly, during first contact, you never shoot, no matter what. You are placed in that position because you are expendable. They made that clear when Sheridan was sent to meet with a representative of the Minbari to try to end the war, he was chosen primarily because he was expendable. You don't fire on an unknown alien species no matter what. Better to die and lose your whole command than to possibly put your whole species in the position that that captain did, in fact, put humanity into.

BTW, the sensors most certainly would be considered an attack. In deep space your life depends on the proper functioning of your computers that do things like run your life support, control your ships reactor, ETC ETC. How does anyone on the EA ship know the reactor wasnt about to run wild or the life support system shut down. For that matter how does anyone know if the big nasty well armed ship turning towards them isnt about to open fire while you can barely move if at all?

They don't, but see above. You're not on first contact to start a war, so you don't start shooting no matter the provocation.

The EA ships could barely detect the Minbari ships and you expect them to be able to read open but powered down on the Minbari weapons?

Yes, and it's canon that they could. Delenn, in the episode with Branmer's body, tells them (and I'm paraphrasing here, if anyone has an exact quote please feel free to update me) "Their weapons are not armed. If you'll scan the vessel you'll see they are not targeting you" or something to that effect. C&C confirms this. We also learn that B5 uses the same targeting and scanning systems as the EA used during the war, so...yes, they could have assessed the lack of threat correctly, but chose to open fire first.

The Grey Council ship was OUTSIDE Minbari space so it doesnt mean squat the you were effectively attacking their capital. That is a pointless strawman when the council goes wandering.

Pointless that they killed the head of the government while he was on an inspection tour? You're telling me that if, say, the Prime Minister of Australia was murdered while in, say, South Carolina, Australia would just shrug and say "Well, he shouldn't have been there in the first place, that's not our territory"? The death of any beloved leader is going to cause a strong reaction, and the assassination of a beloved leader is, historically, a reason one group goes to war. Genocide isn't a solution, of course, but you can't possibly try to argue that going to war was an overreaction.

Yes one vote. She is the only one though that we hear say commit genocide and she does it because her sugar-daddy was just killed. If nothing else that proves she is a complete raving lunatic with major mental issues. You kill my love I am probably going to put you in a grave, I am not though then going to turn around and hunt down every member of your extended family and murder them.

I'm trying to stick to canon and to ignore the pointless hyperbole, but it's tough...they weren't romantically linked, she was his star student...and yes, losing your cool is a defense, unfortunately. Look into something like "extreme emotional distress" or "temporary insanity". In one moment she voted "no mercy" and later regretted it, and did everything she could to derail the war without sacrificing her own society in the bargain.

Everyone including Sheridan was a complete moron for just forgiving and finding every excuse to say what Delenn did was ok. She butchers millions of your species but hey she is great in bed so all is forgiven?!?

First off, NO ONE KNOWS. Lennier knows, that's it, and he doesn't even like humans that much. In fact, she even tried to keep Lennier from finding out by asking him to stay behind when she went into the Dreaming, in the episode where we discover all this. So no one forgave her anything because they didn't know she was the deciding vote.

Second, she was good in bed, sacrificed her place on the ruling body to babysit humanity until the shadow war, was willing to give up her life for her people repeatedly (and other peoples, for that matter), was a major reason the Shadows and Vorlons didn't wipe out all life in that particular galaxy, was a child of prophecy, related to Valen, showed more compassion than any other character on the show (with the possible exception of Vir), knitted the disparate League races into a coalition with Sheridan's help, and eventually built a stable, multi-species intergalactic government that lasted as a force of good for hundreds of years...so yeah, she made a mistake in her youth and in the heat of passion. The show tries to make it clear that she atoned for it.

I saw nothing in the show that demonstrated that the Vorlons had more manipulated the Minbari than anyone else. Humans saw Gabriel the Arch-Angel when they looked up Kosh. Earth has telepaths like Minbari. Sounds like equal messing to me.

Then you're not paying close enough attention. There was a Vorlon In Dukhat's chambers. A Vorlon was ACTIVELY giving advice to the head of the Minbari government. That's even more manipulation than the Shadows, who at least engage in second hand manipulation of governments through their agents. It's probably a violation of the rules of engagement, which is why it was done in such absolute secrecy.

The Vorlons knew full well who Valen was (it's not mentioned directly, but you can't convince me they didn't scan Sinclair when he told them about the Valen thing.) so they knew about the war, and knew what it'd take to make sure B4 ended up there to help them. The Great Machine, time travel, Valen, the Triluminary, all that was set up with the Vorlon's help (we see Valen flanked by two vorlons when he introduces himself to the Minbari, after all). (Which, by the way, means the Vorlons also knew all about the war but didn't bother to interfere since it worked out fine with only a few million dead humans)

Kosh set Delenn on her path of prophecy. That alone should tell you how programmed the Minbari are and how the Vorlons have been manipulating them.

Kosh and Delenn are shown in conference and conversation more than once early on, implying a greater connection than any other race has.

The Vorlons are willing to help the Minbari build the White Star fleet. Considering they are lords of order, there's no way they'd let that technology out of their control unless they thought the Minbari were firmly in hand. It's only the humans that tipped the scales in the wrong direction, not the Minbari.

I could go on, but the point is no other race shared so many subservient ties to the Vorlons as the Minbari.

BTW, it is pretty obvious that Delenn considered herself guilty of war crimes and spent the entire show doing penance. She threw herself into every possible danger in an attempt to atone for what she did. The most obvious example was the race that was dying of the species wide plague. Only Delenn and Lennier went in to help. I doubt they were the only Minbari on the entire station so it wasnt just Minbari good nature that made her decide to help. It was guilt that pushed her to do everything possible to make up for it.

Yes, of course. That's one of the core principles of her character. As I said, the whole show is about mistakes, consequences, atonement and redemption. She also, however, learned from it and learned to make the principled stand, no matter what the cost to herself, as we learn from her bout with the Inquisitor. She changed over time. And since no one knew about her involvement in the war, well she was free to change and grow, which, and I hate to harp on it but it is the most important point here, was the point of the entire series.

Your first contact loses all its credance when you see that Earth Force sent a fairly decent sized and well armed group of warships on this mission.

If First Contact makes you expendable and you are never to open fire then you send ships with lots of armor, lots of speed, good jammers, etc etc so if need be it can run. You do not send a front line battleship which a Hyperion was at that time in the EA Navy.

 

[Timestheus]

NO!! She reacted to what the stupid EA captain did. If anyone deserves it it is the idiot from Earth Alliance.

Really? I fail to see ANY logic in your statement. The EA captain had moments to act adn this is what he saw:

1. Enemy ship refuses hails
2. Enemy ship just immobilized my ship.
3. Enemy ship is now turning towards me.
4. ENEMY SHIP HAS ALL WEAPONS PORTS OPEN!!!!


Anyone in this siuation who does not see the danger and do what it takes to defend him or herself is a complete and utter moron.

-------
The EA ships were intruding into Mimbari space at the time of the
incident. If I may add a comment, the captain of the Promethus was a glory hungry fool who was disobeying his written orders for the mission.
Why would anyone expect this situation to turn out well?

Will people stop saying this. The Grey Council was on its way to investigate if the Shadows had returned at the instructions of Dukat. They were not within Minbari space any longer.

 

[Agamemnon_B5]

Good day all. I am going to attempt to adapt the cultural training I received in the Army (may or may not work) in order to add my two cents.

Off the bat, the Earth captain DID exceed the limits of his orders, which were to gather intel about the Minbari and report back (I can't remember if General Lefcourt mentioned intiating First Contact). The debate will forever continue as to whether or not the war would have started if the the Earth Fleet followed its orders to the letter. On the other hand, it could also be argued that Earth Captains are expected to show some intiative in the field, and using that argument then intiating a dialogue is gathering intel.

On to the incident in question:
The main reason why when the Spanish came to "The New World" that intially no fighting broke out was because the natives were in awe athe the newcomers and no one (Spainard or Native) pointed their weapons at one another in anger. The Earthers were arrogant following the Dilgar War so mistake number one was not respecting a potential friend/foe.

However, I really can't blame the Earth captain for the shooting breaking out, no matter how much I try. Granted he allowed himself to even get into that situation in the first place by pressing foward rather than turning back or halting to asses the situation (mistake number two) but I take another look at the situation (Note: the following can be argued to be mistakes comitted unknowingly by the Minbari).

Firstly, his scanners (I'm guessing the Hyperion's scanners are quite advanced for an Earth ship at the time given possible lessons learned during the Dilgar War) are unable to target, let alone scan the Minbari ships, aluding to a stealth system of some type. By itself not alarming.

Secondly, Minbari scans, unknowingly peaceful, interfere with the Earth ships systems to the extent that the fleet can't jump. By itself somewhat alarming. Combined with the first point, this is very alarming.

Thirdly, The Minbari ships are bearing down on the Earth fleet with gunports open. By itself, very alarming. Combined with the stealth systems and jamming of the jump engines, can you really blame the captain for thinking he was about to come under attack? When in imminent danger, shoot first ask questions later.

The only real world analogy I can offer is the current rules of engagement we coalition soldiers have in Iraq and Afghanistan. Anyone not wearing a uniform of a coalition soldier or the local government isn't automatically treated with suspision, even if they have weapons (Iraqi constitution allows citizens to own assault rifles). However should that unknown person aim said weapons at a friendly force, deadly force is authorized, even if the weapons are never discharged (I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with this, I'm just giving an analogy). This is a stretch trying to apply this to a first contact situation by one has to at least see what the military rationale was. One could say mistake number three by the Earth Alliance was to send a military fleet and not a civilian explorationg ship. (On a side note, sending soldiers to do a diplomats job seems to be the growing trend today, and I hope by the time 2247 roles around Humans grow out of that).

Back to the poster's original question: Would I have brought up Delenn on war crimes. My answer would be no. I would hold the entire Grey Council at fault. Assuming the three members from the Warrior Caste said yes and one group (possibly the worker caste?) voted together for no war, those dissenters did nothing to stop the war. Nothing stoped them from pulling the forces they controlled out of the campaign. I might understand if the Minbari destroyed humanity within the first few months of the war when revenge fever was fresh, but two years of genocide? None of the religious caste members of the Grey Council tried seriously to stop the war. The worker caste probably just sat with their heads up their collective @$$.

I would also expect that a hearing would have been held for the Earth Captain had he survived the war, and maybe for the genius (General Lefcourt?) that overlooked including a first contact specialist with over-ride authority just in case.

 

[True Bull]

Your first contact loses all its credance when you see that Earth Force sent a fairly decent sized and well armed group of warships on this mission.

If First Contact makes you expendable and you are never to open fire then you send ships with lots of armor, lots of speed, good jammers, etc etc so if need be it can run. You do not send a front line battleship which a Hyperion was at that time in the EA Navy.

Londo was involved as well. He gave a fairly specific warning to Earthgov about the Minbari. Earthgov is about to send a recon unit into the suspected territory of a race even the Centauri treat with caution in order to cause a first contact. Do you put a level headed experienced captain in charge of this tricky mission - No. Obviously you put a trigger happy fool in charge. Do you use smaller fleeter ships? Again no, you give him control of a heavily armed battlegroup and then you reap what you sow.

 

[Natxomann]

I think you all are forgetting some important factors in this discussion:

1- The Minbari ARE Aliens , with their own , alien culture . It is unknown if they have such concepts as "war crimes" .

2- In the show is stated several times that they revere their leaders . In fact they revere them so much (specially , Dukhat , who was considered their greatest leader since Valen) , that any attack aginst them is considered sacrilege , and would provoke bloody retribution .

3- The Minbari always act as one , so if the council mayority voted for war , all the Minbari people would go to war .

4- The Minbari wage total wars , not limited ones .

5- Both sides screwed up the first contact . The Minbari warriors (unacostumed to such situations) acted with what they consided courtesy , and approached the unknown ships with the gun ports open (a gesture of respect) , and the EA Captain (who was disobeying orders , since he was only conducting a recon mission , and had been forbidden to attempt to contact any Minbari ship) compounded the situation firing first , after a series of misunderstandings .

6- On top of all of this , I belive that those that think that Delenn wanted to subject the human race to genocide are in error when they cite her saying "show no mercy" . I think that in the heat of the moment , she was really talking about the humans directly responsible of Dukhat's death , and after she coooled off , she tried to stop the war , until the very end , 3 years later .

 

[Da Boss]

Culture is irrelevant - the Centauri considered the Narn animals - does not make what they did right, the Dilgar had their own reasons - the Minbari considered themselevs superior and that the extermiantion of an entire race was worth one Minbari death (very Craftworld Eldar in thought)

Total vs limited war - can you clairfy what is then not justified in total war

re Delenn - When are we shown reluctance to "kill them all" before the final assault on earth?

Of course IIRC correctly it is told by Londo whio has been known to adjust truths

I say blame the Vorlons - its all their fault for setting the situation up to try adn win the Shadow war

 

[Shadow Queen]

Londo said

Send one ship, one ship only.

 

[Da Boss]

Is that what he said he said

 

[Natxomann]

1 - Culture is TOTALLY relevant . What you consider a just reason to wage war can be considered just the opposite by another culture .
I.e , some Muslims (not all , and not even the vast majority) , consider that they can perfectly force infidels into slavery(and I mean
medieval/ancient times - style slavery)... , while I think that anyone that thinks that way should be exterminated , crying "no mercy" all the while .


2 - Total war does not means "we should drop our principles and morals to win" . The nazis and the Japanese did such things (among others) , and the rest of the world ended up fighting against them .

The Minbati view of total war is to destroy their enemies' capability to wage war against the Minbari people . To do that , they would have to destroy their enemies' "warrior caste" , and the economic-industrial infrastructure that supported the enemy war effort .

Plus , they not only had not fought a war in a thousand years , but also they had almost no contact with aliens in all that time , except with the Centauri... when they were a greedy , brutal empire that treated anyone weaker that they were , as they treated the Narn later ... clearly not a good example of what the Minbari could expect of Alien cultures .

This does not mean that they acted innocently , since the warriors were clearly enjoying themselves while beating a weaker foe , but that places the blame not only on Delenn , but also on ALL the minbari people .


3 - If you have seen "Atonement" and/or "In the Beginning" , you will remember that Delenn , just after the first battle of the war , tried to stop the war , both openly and in secret .
It was she , after all , who send the Ranger leader to open negotiations with Sheridan .


4 - But Londo is telling the history of the war to some kids ... and to us . Are you saying that all the entire series is a lot of lies?



5 - Of course you blame the Vorlons , you are a Shadow-loving traitorous mutant communist :lol: , that's the reason you call our beloved emperor Londo... euhhh ... The Computer a liar!!

 

[Da Boss]

1 - Culture is TOTALLY relevant . What you consider a just reason to wage war can be considered just the opposite by another culture .
I.e , some Muslims (not all , and not even the vast majority) , consider that they can perfectly force infidels into slavery(and I mean
medieval/ancient times - style slavery)... , while I think that anyone that thinks that way should be exterminated , crying "no mercy" all the while .!!

Yes I agree the reason for waging war is a cultural thing but just that it does not matter what your culture is if you commit certain crimes - now if we consider that the Minbari attempted genocide that they are guilty - not Delenn but the Council. Slavery is a apractise that many cultures and religions have implemented - like the fact the early Popes owned Gladiators. War crimes are defined and they it should be considered if the races/individual has carried them out. Culture is used far too often as a exceuss to carry our crimes against other nations, indiviudals and religions hmm bit serious there

2 - Total war does not means "we should drop our principles and morals to win" . The nazis and the Japanese did such things (among others) , and the rest of the world ended up fighting against them . !!

The Minbari wanted to exterminate a inferior race - sound familiar Now its very difficult to know if this is true given that we never saw (I don't think) details of the war and treament of civilians............

The Minbati view of total war is to destroy their enemies' capability to wage war against the Minbari people . To do that , they would have to destroy their enemies' "warrior caste" , and the economic-industrial infrastructure that supported the enemy war effort . !!

Question is what whould they have done next ?

Plus , they not only had not fought a war in a thousand years , but also they had almost no contact with aliens in all that time , except with the Centauri... when they were a greedy , brutal empire that treated anyone weaker that they were , as they treated the Narn later ... clearly not a good example of what the Minbari could expect of Alien cultures ..!!

No but I would think they were also more than aware of the Vree, Abbai, and other peaceful races?

This does not mean that they acted innocently , since the warriors were clearly enjoying themselves while beating a weaker foe , but that places the blame not only on Delenn , but also on ALL the minbari people ..!!

yep I agree but the Council are their leaders - they get to take the blame!

3 - If you have seen "Atonement" and/or "In the Beginning" , you will remember that Delenn , just after the first battle of the war , tried to stop the war , both openly and in secret .
It was she , after all , who send the Ranger leader to open negotiations with Sheridan .!!

Yeah I suppose - a few things seem to shift and change in the movies - I got the impression in the series at the Battle of the Line she was quite happy watching the carnage.............or at least not overly concerned except to get it all over with and go home and forget about it..

4 - But Londo is telling the history of the war to some kids ... and to us . Are you saying that all the entire series is a lot of lies?!!

Maybe :shock: but prob not However he may well have simplified a few things..............especially if talking to Humans !

5 - Of course you blame the Vorlons , you are a Shadow-loving traitorous mutant communist :lol: , that's the reason you call our beloved emperor Londo... euhhh ... The Computer a liar!!

Well not a mutant or a comunist but I am waiting for someone to ask me "What do I want? "

 

[Clanger]

Simple Delenn should be tried for war crimes. She was part of the leadership of the Minbari. She was part of the decision to try and commit genocide.

If Delenn was part of the Nazi Party at the end of WW2, she would be tried for war crimes, even if she tried to stop the fighting after her deciding vote to destroy the humans (guilt playing on her mind).

 

[Shadow Queen]

rules of engagement:

1. do not fire unless fired apon,

so there was an EA task force that opened fire after Jankowski gave the order.

 

[Agamemnon_B5]

rules of engagement:

1. do not fire unless fired apon,

There is another rule of engagement that says fire first if in danger, and given that Earth intiated it's involvement in the Dilgar War with a premptive strike, I would say the "shoot first" part might have been the norm. Like I said, If my jump engines are being jammed, my scanners can't lock on, and the Minbari are bearing down on me with gunports open... in this case 1+1=2.

If anything, the Earth Captain didn't press his luck. He could have pressed foward his attack but as soon as the jamming stop and he was able to jump, he did just that. He only fired first in self-defense and immediatley retreated when able.

 

[Shadow Queen]

I'd run.....

 

[Agamemnon_B5]

Again, he wasn't able to run away because his jump engines were being jammed by the Minbari scanners. He had know idea if the Minbari were faster in normal space, but they sure looked advanced enough to be. In the end, as soon as his jump engines were online he did retreat. He really did nothing wrong militarily speaking.

 

[Shadow Queen]

I ment turn away and try to get out the way

 

[Agamemnon_B5]

Ahhh....my mistake.

In any event, it could be argued that you never turn your back to a potential foe. I'm guessing the Earth Captain (why the heck can't I remember his name) didn't want to turn his back since he felt he was in danger. Besides, most Earth ships have poor rear defense. Just like how a tank commander might decide to stay and fight rather than turn his vulnerable rear to the enemy or reverse at slow speeds and risk being outflanked.

 

[Shadow Queen]

Captain Michael R Jankowski:
Of the EAS Prometheus.


“They will hand out medals by the bucket load if they don’t spot us”….

“All forward batteries open fire… Fire I repeat Fire!!!”


The single most notorious name in the Earth-Minbari War, Captain Michael R Jankowski being ordered on a First Contact mission, to bring back information on the Minbari, he gave the order to open fire on the Valen’tha while she was approaching with her gun ports open as ordered by one of the Warrior Cast Council members.

When Jankowski gave the order to fire he killed Dukhat leader of the Minbari Grey Council and thus starting the Earth-Minbari War.

He was raised in a southern NAF military family where medals and promotions were all that mattered to him. As long as he was still moving up the food chain he was still looked upon as ‘the good son’ even after Jankowski was cleared of the ‘Omega incident’.


General Robert Lefcourt wanted to put Lieutenant Commander John J Sheridan as Jankowski XO but refused and stayed with the EAS Lexington.