Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?
- Thread starter k0k0pelli
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Doesn't have to be either/or.
I'd go one step further.
Send out a fighter/bomber.
Have the fighter/bomber ripple off the drones.
The drones bombard the target, then crash into the target, themselves.
The fighter/bomber then crashes into the target.
I'd go one step further.
Send out a fighter/bomber.
Have the fighter/bomber ripple off the drones.
The drones bombard the target, then crash into the target, themselves.
The fighter/bomber then crashes into the target.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The pilot must be some sort of fanatic...
but yes, a "fighter" coordinates drones and missiles (is a missile not just a drone and vise versa by this point), with wave after wave of missile/drone ordnance launched from the mothership.
I have posted on this before.
The nature of ship combat changes with TL
TL7->TL11
Fleet A (Int)fires its missiles/drones and launches its fighter/elint craft. It puts a line of escorts between this swarm and the capital ships.
Fleet Z (Def) fires its own as above
The swarms meet and combat between them occurs, any that get through must now face the escorts. Any that get past the escorts may now attack the capitals - who by now have determined if they stand a chance of winning, otherwise they retreat.
At TL12 the advent of nuclear dampers render nuclear missiles mostly useless, while the spinal particle accelerator can now cripple escorts, so the nature of the fleet combat changes...
and so on up the TLs
GDW HG modelled this, MgT HG is less distinctive with regards to TL effects.
but yes, a "fighter" coordinates drones and missiles (is a missile not just a drone and vise versa by this point), with wave after wave of missile/drone ordnance launched from the mothership.
I have posted on this before.
The nature of ship combat changes with TL
TL7->TL11
Fleet A (Int)fires its missiles/drones and launches its fighter/elint craft. It puts a line of escorts between this swarm and the capital ships.
Fleet Z (Def) fires its own as above
The swarms meet and combat between them occurs, any that get through must now face the escorts. Any that get past the escorts may now attack the capitals - who by now have determined if they stand a chance of winning, otherwise they retreat.
At TL12 the advent of nuclear dampers render nuclear missiles mostly useless, while the spinal particle accelerator can now cripple escorts, so the nature of the fleet combat changes...
and so on up the TLs
GDW HG modelled this, MgT HG is less distinctive with regards to TL effects.
That is not what we see in Traveller (not withstanding that we can only achieve Thrust 11 with manoeuvre drives and Thrust 16 with reaction drives) . Certainly with reaction engines the ultimate size of the vehicle is irrelevant since it comes down to the amount of mass you can push out the back. Big vehicles need the same percentage of tonnage for drives (of either type) and fuel as small vehicles.
In real life the determining factor is the G-force the crew can manage, missiles have no crew and so can accelerate faster. Now in traveller we ignore G-Force and say it is compensated by the manoeuvre drive. Reaction drives do not provide this facility and so (in MGT2 Traveller at least) ships are limited to Thrust 11 but missiles could achieve Thrust 16.
It is also more likely that TL12+ Missiles will be shipped around as a commodity than ships themselves. TL14 Advanced Missiles should be fairly ubiquitous at any Class A star port. These have more Thrust than any possible ship even in the least favourable attack vector (stern chase). In fleet battles of course ships could be attacking from any vector. If advanced missiles are launched at long range they will arrive immediately with no opportunity to use EW to counter them. If the ship has already fired lasers then it will have no point defence capability either.
If you actually use vector movement then of course the initial speed of the ships becomes important and of course the missiles should inherit the velocity of the launching ship. This might make Thrust irrelevant.
I believe the most likely duel scenario is where a pirate attacks a trader. I would envisage the Trader starting with 0 velocity in the region of the 100D limit (and out of jump fuel) and the pirate starting at close to 10D limit (with fuel tanks full). In this case this will be a head on engagement and the closing velocity will be that of the pirate plus the trader. The first indication of ill-intent might be a signal at medium range to strike drives and prepare for boarding, followed by a mixed salvo of advanced missiles, standard missiles and ion missiles in the event of non-compliance. Some will get through since most traders will have a maximum of 2 turrets and the only choice the trader will have is which type of missiles to be hit by. If Container Missiles were used the volley is 8 missiles meaning 2-4 multi dice missiles per volley that was not selected for point defence which is likely a critical hit and a significant chunk of hull points lost, possibly ship wide power outages and certainly the start of a challenging day for the crew.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
But the big vehicle then has more space for weapons...
Since you brought up real life do we invoke the rocket equation? A 100g missile can be done, how long can it accelerate for?
Back to magic g compensation, this is a woolly area in Traveller canon.
This is a good point, are there any guidlines as to civilian availability of advanced TL missiles? Have to go look.
Traveller has nearly always used Newtonian movement, even when abstracted, The two notable exceptions are MegaTraveller and Mongoose Traveller. The latter tries, but the thrust rules are not really up to it.
So the pirate is just sitting there at the 10D limit waiting for an arriving ship?
If I were Starport Authority I would be sending a squadron of fighters or an SDB to find out why the ship is waiting at the 10D limit rather than jumping or maneuvering inbound.
Back to something I posted earlier, the merchant replies to the hail with opening fire on the pirate. The aim is to so damage the pirate it can either not jump or can't afford the repair bill. The pirate is thus faced with either destroying the merchant and having nothing to show for profit and a hefty repair bill, or running away. Since it started at 10D it is still within range of the starport ship contingent scrambling towards it, they will arrive before the pirate can reach the 100D limit and jump.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Like I've mentioned any number of times, if I had the tools to customize missiles, I'd make them faster, and wouldn't bother with more than a thirty minute range.
Depending on the traffic density, the pirate isn't going to be sitting there long, I chose the 10D limit as it seemed the logic point it would pass out of planetary traffic control (I can see you having flight corridors enforced out to that point). If you prefer it could sit on the ground "loading cargo" for as long as was convenient. It makes no practical difference it will wait for the infinitely detectable Jump Signature and then start off.
The intention was not to start the engagement at 10D, but begin the approach from that range (up until the point the pirate is following Starport Authority directions). The ideal intercept is a less than a dozen D inside the 100D limit. A Thrust 3 pirate (pirates rely on speed probably as much as firepower) approaching a Thrust 1 Trader will meet it somewhere around the 90D mark (ideally placed for early jump). If it needs to start on the ground it might be closer to 80D and have to boost out to there making it a bit more dicey (unless the Trader arrived further out). That gives time to intercept, loot quickly and probably jump before an SBD can intercept (as the attack attempt is only notified on the broadcast to strike).
The pirate might well chose to disable their transponder before laying in a course at the 10D point. As it has been behaving itself until that point it is unlikely to have been identified as a track of interest. By the time planetary forces get to its last known position it will be far away on an unknown vector and outside passive sensor range. To use active sensors you need to know where to point them. Using them makes you more visible and easier to avoid. Unless you know where you need to go you cannot pile on the speed necessary to catch up and the longer it takes to scramble the wider the net becomes. I suggest that until that hail goes out they will be flying in random directions and are unlikely to be in the right place in time to have a useful effect.
Since the target trader is unaware that it is a target it has no reason to change course. The best thing the planetary navy can do is head toward the nearest friendly vessel and hope it is the target (or possibly head towards the ships they want to protect the most to ensure that it isn't the target). If the pirate detects a navy vessel too close to it's preferred target it can switch or simply abort and jump out.
If the trader opens fire on the pirate on the hail (which is not an unreasonable response) then it will need to cripple the pirate with that first volley as having fired that first volley it has nothing left for point defence and every missile launched will make it to the target unmolested (whether they hit or not is another matter, but that seems fairly likely with all the modifiers). That will be 2 advanced missiles, 4 standard missiles and 2 ion missiles in this case. You might do the pirate 2D+2 (maybe x2). That is expensive to repair, but unlikely to cripple it or even cause a critical hit. It could easily be doing you 26D plus maybe some power loss.
Whilst it has shot its main bolt it can now either jump away if you are fit enough to fight on leaving a message that resistance is expensive (for both parties), scoop up some scrap if you were obliterated, or if you are badly damaged but not dead it might threaten you with it's other hardpoint(s) (which will be a laser turret of some sort).
This is the case where if you were going to resist I think you would be better launching your own 8 missile barrage rather than popping away with a laser.
This situation is similar to the hundreds of early Car Wars (3rd edition) designs of low armour cargo vehicles armed with single or dual MGs on the basis that they had a lot of ammunition. The fact that these vehicles rarely survived long enough to expend more than a small percentage of their ammunition was not considered. Whilst they could withstand a few burst from their own weapons, the bandits were generally better armed and faster. It was cheaper to pay the toll and sensible bandits learned to milk the locale and then clear off for new hunting grounds.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Ok, so now we have a ship taking off from the planet and immediately heading for an inbound ship...
The thrust 1 ship is accelerating towards the half way point to the planet (keeping the orbital mechanics required to match vectors with the planet out of this).
A thrust 3 ship is 3 times faster. Once it reaches the half way point and doesn't flip and begin a deceleration something is up.
Also a jump exit lane will be a long, long, long way from a jump entry lane (space is very big). As soon as the pirate is obviously plotting an intercept course on the merchant something is up.
Space is big, as soon as you plot an intercept course you are going to red light the boards.
Starport authorities will locate it immediately its transponder is switched off, and they will use active sensors to do so.
You just switched off your transponder, every starport tracking system and every patrol ship is going to actively search for you, you may need help...
once the active scans indicate you are now on an intercept course with an inbound ship...
Why would a civilian trader not be using its active radar at all times during peacetime? Also you have been advised by starport authority that a ship may be in distress and has switched off its transponder...
No, the trader just needs to do so much damage that the pirate is going to have to spend more money than it earns from the piracy attempt. If the pirate destroys you it is leaving empty handed with damage to repair.
As to heave tooing - Newtonian movement doesn't work that way. The merchant can not just stop, and the pirate can not do a bootleg turn and match vector. The pirate would have to match the inbound vector of the merchant, which means it is now heading inbound. Or it will have to wait for the merchant to flip and burn.
I still don't see how the pirate can plot an intercept course and not be spotted.
You can't "scoop up scrap" without matching vectors, this is not Star Wars. In point of fact any debris hitting you is likely to cause massive damage since your closing vectors are huge. If the merchant opts to fight you are getting nothing and you are taking damage.
I would do both
Not really because the movement environment is very different. If the merchant opts to fight you are getting nothing and you have damage to repair, and a crew to pay...
If you use what little information we have about shipping density, only the busiest of starports (Class A ports on very high pop worlds) will have the kind of shipping density that a pirate might be hanging out 'not very long' to find a suitable target. And those ports are exactly the ones that can both afford and need a lot of revenue cutters and patrol craft.
An "ordinary" port in Traveller's rules has 0-7 ships per day. That's a normal space tech (TL 10-12) Class C port on a large-ish pop world (7-8). Your typical TL 8, Pop 7 world with a D port is going to have like 0-1 ship per day using the default rules.
An "ordinary" port in Traveller's rules has 0-7 ships per day. That's a normal space tech (TL 10-12) Class C port on a large-ish pop world (7-8). Your typical TL 8, Pop 7 world with a D port is going to have like 0-1 ship per day using the default rules.
No they are just leaving the planet within a few minutes of another ship jumping in. Their direction as stated will be in accordance with Starport authority directives. Nothing suspicious there. It is once they reach the 10D limit that they will set course for an intercept point. This will not be heading for an inbound ship, but for the point where the inbound ship will be at the time of intercept (since the trader will almost certainly be making full burn for the
Where did I say that it wasn't going to decelerate? It will need to do this to be able to conduct operations against the trader. Zipping past at a thousands of m/s is impractical. Now granted it's deceleration vector might not match the profile of a ship intending to come to a halt at the 100D point but if as I said it is planning early jump at that 90D point then that is not incompatible.
This is may be true in YTU, it is not a universal or as far as I am aware set out in the MGT2 rules. In the types of systems pirates are more common there may not be any traffic control at all. Even if this were the case you still have to be aware that the pirate is plotting an intercept course for it to look suspicious. I affirm this is not possible at distant range using MGT2 sensor rules.
10D for a normal size planet is distant range for sensors. At that range the information that sensors will provide is minimal for thermal - unspecified hotspot and minimal for active radar - basic outline. You do not get a vector read off that. If you continue tracking you might be able to infer a vector, but for that you need triangulation since a ship moving directly away from the planet will look much the same regardless of it's final destination.
Range of sensors.
Who said it wasn't? I contend that at 540,000 km it won't see anything. Searching is an active sensor check. At over 300,000km this is a Formidable check and your civilian sensors are at -2.
Depends on the motivation of the pirate. It doesn't have to make a profit out of this attack, it just needs to make a profit over the course of its career. You doing it some damage makes this engagement not profitable, but if as a result of destroying you for daring to fight back the next ship may decide that resistance is futile.
Never said it did, indeed I was arguing that very point when people talking about the IN being able to cover the entirety of the 100D volume of every system.
Part of the reason for the early intercept is so that the merchant has not gained too much speed. You don't need to match vectors to attack or demand surrender, you just need to match vectors to board. You were planning to arrive at the intercept at low speed anyway as you want to ensure you can stop to jump. You don't need to dock using the main craft, pirates can carry faster small craft for boarding, these can conduct boarding (or salvage) and return to the main craft without the pirate needing to change vector.
If you choose to not allow it in YTU then that is fine, it doesn't mean that is baked into the rules. The chance of meeting a pirate is baked into the rules so I am finding ways to allow that to happen.
Already covered, we are slowing and possibly deploying the jolly boat if something takes our fancy (like a rescue ball).
I agree with your first point (which means we have agreed that it is worth a trader carrying at least one configuration of missiles.I would do both
Not really because the movement environment is very different. If the merchant opts to fight you are getting nothing and you have damage to repair, and a crew to pay...
The second point is arguable, it depends on how you play Traveller and how you played Car Wars. As stated you don't need to win every fight as a pirate, you just need to win enough.
We have talked about all this before. We clearly have different views on how effective sensors are. I have allowed transponders to be detected at Distant range as they are designed to transmit. Similarly we are told the jump event can be detected beyond distant range. None of the others work beyond a very small bubble based on MGT2 rules. That bubble realistically extends out to 300,000 km (for limited information) and the 90D point is well beyond that (which is why I selected it as the sweet spot for daring piracy).
And these are the very ports that you will be very unlikely to encounter anything other than a daring pirate, but roll 61 and you will, so something must make it possible.
Can you cite a reference for the number of ships per day?
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Could be fun for a small Navy ship to jump in with a civilian transponder running to troll pirates into an intercept burn. By the time they realize it’s not a merchant, they are already committed.
Probably not the best use of the IN time, but as a "we take the pirate threat seriously" demonstration it might get approved by the financiers. A repurposed "Civilian" trader with two hardpoints of those Container Missiles run with a decent navy crew and in close contact with the entire Colonial Flotilla would be a powerful incentive for pirates to "hunt elsewhere"
Or even better run this as a mission for the players. Provide the missiles but they need to provide the ship. They will have to lure the pirates, spring the trap and hope the naval reserves manage to trap the pirate if it evades their reach. It would be high risk but high reward (and as long as they make sure they have their emergency vacc suits on at all times maybe not excessively dangerous???
World Builder's Handbook
And that range of sensors is for the tiny sensors mounted on ships. Planetary and base sensors can be much larger and more powerful. But we are getting back to "Mongoose massively nerfed sensors to match the range they wanted to have combats happen in". Probably because they don't want to deal with time lag for longer distances.
Also, intercept course means a travel that will intersect the expected future location of another ship. Not "aimed at where they are now".
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Good mission for the players. And it might be how small Navy ships do anti piracy patrols. Arrive everywhere that way and see if anything pops.Probably not the best use of the IN time, but as a "we take the pirate threat seriously" demonstration it might get approved by the financiers. A repurposed "Civilian" trader with two hardpoints of those Container Missiles run with a decent navy crew and in close contact with the entire Colonial Flotilla would be a powerful incentive for pirates to "hunt elsewhere"
Or even better run this as a mission for the players. Provide the missiles but they need to provide the ship. They will have to lure the pirates, spring the trap and hope the naval reserves manage to trap the pirate if it evades their reach. It would be high risk but high reward (and as long as they make sure they have their emergency vacc suits on at all times maybe not excessively dangerous???
Ok I have that now, I'll see if it breaks the trade system further
Again, can you cite that. Planetary sensors also have to contend with planetary and orbital interference. Orbital facilities have an easier time of it but they will be using the same sensors as the ships.
Yep, agreed. And for that you need their vector. You get that from extended observation and extrapolation as long as you know the exact location at each measurement. If all you have is a single "size 3 sensor trace at bearing 233" that doesn't necessarily help since it can be "Small or Far Away".
Planetary sensors tend to have a limited distance between them making triangulation of things moving directly away at range difficult. Three picket ships well dispersed would be a better bet.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The pirates would have to use a commercial or civilian ship type.
They might have to submit a flight plan, and get permission before taking off.
They might have to submit a flight plan, and get permission before taking off.
actionman
Cosmic Mongoose
Q ships for the win. Another of my favorite things for adventures, like miserable penal battalions.
This is the core problem of all these discussions. We don't agree on what space infrastructure actually exists. The default assumption seems to be that despite centuries or millenia of space faring, there's less stuff in space than we've managed to put up with a few decades of primitive by Traveller standards spaceflight. Because no sourcebook has addressed the issue.
Right now we have permanent sensor stations (The James Webb Telescope) at the L2 point. Plus assorted space stations, orbital telescopes, satellites, and other crap.
But with interstellar travel for centuries and 3000+ years of scientific progress, we can't manage to keep an eye on the immediate environment of an inhabited planet?
Right now we have permanent sensor stations (The James Webb Telescope) at the L2 point. Plus assorted space stations, orbital telescopes, satellites, and other crap.
But with interstellar travel for centuries and 3000+ years of scientific progress, we can't manage to keep an eye on the immediate environment of an inhabited planet?
