world type: non agricultural

[Matt Wilson]

This particular "trade code" seems a bit neglected. It's not listed on the "trade goods by world type" table on p. 166, and on the main trade goods table it has very few purchase/sale DMs.

Wouldn't this world type be particularly interested in consumables? I would think there'd be a + for sale DM on that kind of world. Or maybe vat-meat is really tasty?

And on a related note, what's the reasoning, however far back it goes, that says a world with a type A, B, or C atmosphere can't also be NA? I would think those worlds would have as much difficulty as vacuum worlds in growing their own food. But there may be assumptions in the source material that I'm overlooking.

 

[DickTurpin]

Atmospheres of type A (Exotic) could sometimes support agriculture, but I agree that types B and C would be unlikely to support anything that humans could eat.

I can see adding a positive Sale DM for Basic Consumables, but there are already seven trade codes listed there (As is listed in both columns) and since NA worlds are often also IC or As and both are already listed it may have been considered redundant.

As always, anyone is free to modify the DMS for their own game, but actually changing the rules should takes a bit more thought/debate. To start the debate, I would suggest adding Atmosphere types B and C to the NA qualifications and replacing Asteroid +1 in the Sell DM column with Non-Agricultural +2.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

If you look at the trade codes only ONE of them includes ATM A+ and that is the FLUID trade code.

I think that a LOT of the trade codes should have been updated with the additional atmosphere types. Original LBB 1-3 CT only listed ATM codes up to C, so D-F were added later.

NA should be a code that imports a lot of food stuffs. Not sure what the export would be, maybe mining and manufactured goods?

 

[dragoner]

It would also be importing natural fibers for cloth, and probably wood. Luxury food items for sure, mass consumables would be taken care of by hydroponics.

 

[sideranautae]

It would also be importing natural fibers for cloth, and probably wood. Luxury food items for sure, mass consumables would be taken care of by hydroponics.

Lab "grown" cotton and wool will be being made within a couple of TL's at the latest. Lab created meat is already well along the way. Coupled with hydroponics as you mention or even aeroponics (which is easier and cheaper than hydroponics) mass imports of those won't exist.

 

[Matt Wilson]

I think that a LOT of the trade codes should have been updated with the additional atmosphere types. Original LBB 1-3 CT only listed ATM codes up to C, so D-F were added later.

It was interesting to go back through the MgT forum archives and read the debates around trade codes, among other things. Seems to me that they played it too safe in how close they stuck to the original. But that's just my opinion.

Anyway, making a house rule ain't no big deal, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something regarding non-agricultural and the assumptions behind it.

Lab "grown" cotton and wool will be being made within a couple of TL's at the latest. Lab created meat is already well along the way. Coupled with hydroponics as you mention or even aeroponics (which is easier and cheaper than hydroponics) mass imports of those won't exist.

Certainly not a megafreighter haul, no. But I think the + sale DM would suggest that the otherwise ordinary goldfish crackers* onboard your free trader are considered luxury items just by virtue of being different from the vat-grown stuff.

* apologies if I offended lovers of goldfish crackers by suggesting that they're anything less than delightful

 

[sideranautae]

Certainly not a megafreighter haul, no.

Right. Not even by the Free Traders haul. (except for REAL luxury imports) The tables are based on the assumption that technology stays at 1970's level at the highest for those type of considerations.

 

[Matt Wilson]

I think those tables assume that in the future there is no such thing as price convergence.

And 1970s tech is the best, baby! My ship has shag carpeting.

 

[Infojunky]

And 1970s tech is the best, baby! My ship has shag carpeting.

Grassfualt Man... It's more Natural....

 

[sideranautae]

I think those tables assume that in the future there is no such thing as price convergence.

And 1970s tech is the best, baby! My ship has shag carpeting.

:lol: GOTTA have shag carpet in the sunken crew lounge!

Yeah, price convergence is illegal in the 3I :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

Did anyone do comparative numbers on how much it costs to grow food, move it up to orbit jump it across X systems then drop it to the surface versus the cost to grow your own in huge great greenhouses (or whatever the appropriate tech is)?

I haven't so maybe I shouldn't throw my opinion out there but when did that ever stop me? haha!

If a world can't sustain itself with the basic elements of life support: Gravity, air, water and food would it maintain a population?

I guess the trade description could mean they cannot export agricultural products but that still leaves the cost to export food as a relevant question.

While there is significant movement of food on our small blue planet, I am pretty sure that most countries maintain domestic food production in case something like a war or circumstances beyond their control affect their ability to feed their population. What hope would a planet unable to support it's population have isolated by a parsec or more of space?

Maybe I am looking a little harder at the 3rd Imperium's population distribution than I should (but by no means as hard as some look!) but wouldn't this change the distribution of settled worlds? Or am I basing my idea on the notion that it really is too expensive to move food across parsecs?

 

[GypsyComet]

Or am I basing my idea on the notion that it really is too expensive to move food across parsecs?

High end items wont have their prices hugely altered by having shipping costs tacked on, even across a subsector or two, but instant ramen isn't worth shipping more than one or two parsecs unless the destination is really desperate. Of course, at nearly 10,000 units per displacement ton (for the example I have handy) there's a lot of ramen to spread those shipping costs around.

 

[Infojunky]

While there is significant movement of food on our small blue planet, I am pretty sure that most countries maintain domestic food production in case something like a war or circumstances beyond their control affect their ability to feed their population.

You would think, Lots of developing nations are net importers of basic food stocks.

Or am I basing my idea on the notion that it really is too expensive to move food across parsecs?

Yep, but lots of people make that assumption, lots of worlds are effectively outposts to produce one or two things. Figure the average Population score is 5.

 

[Jacqual]

I think those tables assume that in the future there is no such thing as price convergence.

And 1970s tech is the best, baby! My ship has shag carpeting.

:lol: GOTTA have shag carpet in the sunken crew lounge!

Yeah, price convergence is illegal in the 3I :shock:

I have the Shag carpet in the sunken crew lounge, with a rebuilt 8 track tape player.

 

[Infojunky]

I have the Shag carpet in the sunken crew lounge, with a rebuilt 8 track tape player.

We Got the 8track! Cool we can jump anywhere.... Where did we put the Jump tapes?

 

[dragoner]

A 1000 person corporate colony would import most everything, anything beyond the mining would be ancillary, and there is shipping space to spare, with most ships coming in dead.

Both Europe and Asia are net food importers, iirc.

 

[sideranautae]

Did anyone do comparative numbers on how much it costs to grow food, move it up to orbit jump it across X systems then drop it to the surface versus the cost to grow your own in huge great greenhouses (or whatever the appropriate tech is)?

For Interstellar TL planets consisting of millions of people it is more expensive to import. High density food production at those TL's would be ridiculously easy.

If a world can't sustain itself with the basic elements of life support: Gravity, air, water and food would it maintain a population?

Lots of variables. If it is a world deep within a stable empire that may not matter. If it is on the fringe or, outside of such a polity where being cut off is a possibility it is unlikely to NOT be able to be self sufficient in the basics.

I guess the trade description could mean they cannot export agricultural products but that still leaves the cost to export food as a relevant question.

Or, most likely, that Ag exports are not a significant part of its export economy.

While there is significant movement of food on our small blue planet, I am pretty sure that most countries maintain domestic food production in case something like a war or circumstances beyond their control affect their ability to feed their population. What hope would a planet unable to support it's population have isolated by a parsec or more of space?

Maybe not enough to keep from starving. See Germany WW1, UK & Japan WW2.

Maybe I am looking a little harder at the 3rd Imperium's population distribution than I should (but by no means as hard as some look!) but wouldn't this change the distribution of settled worlds? Or am I basing my idea on the notion that it really is too expensive to move food across parsecs?

Not sure as the 3I (inhabited systems) are illogical in the 1st place. (see all the threads on Trav boards trying to justify wacky world stats.)