Why no co-pilot?

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

So why no co-pilots in Traveller? Isn't anyone worried about that drunken pilot in the Free Trader wiping out the space port when he crashes? On the frontier OK but why not required on the more advanced worlds with lots of space traffic? Maybe an astrogator with Pilot 0 would be enough?

 

[MasterGwydion]

So why no co-pilots in Traveller? Isn't anyone worried about that drunken pilot in the Free Trader wiping out the space port when he crashes? On the frontier OK but why not required on the more advanced worlds with lots of space traffic? Maybe an astrogator with Pilot 0 would be enough?

None in Firefly either. No idea.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Vormaerin]

Since the Astrogator basically does nothing, they should normally be the copilot. But the game seems to assume a very great deal of automation because most ships don't have enough bridge crew to stand watches, unless they are quite large. So it's pretty clear that the computer is doing most of the watch standing.

 

[To Tha Moon!]

Since the Astrogator basically does nothing, they should normally be the copilot. But the game seems to assume a very great deal of automation because most ships don't have enough bridge crew to stand watches, unless they are quite large. So it's pretty clear that the computer is doing most of the watch standing.

Hey Man! You're not getting to another star system without that Astrogator!

<shakily puts the 7th cup of coffii of the day down>

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So why no co-pilots in Traveller? Isn't anyone worried about that drunken pilot in the Free Trader wiping out the space port when he crashes? On the frontier OK but why not required on the more advanced worlds with lots of space traffic? Maybe an astrogator with Pilot 0 would be enough?

You already nailed it, it's called an Astrogator...
Or rather the Pilot is the co-pilot to the Astrogator, that does the difficult bit, jumping.

The Astrogator is also the default sensor operator, at least by tradition.

 

[boggo2300]

You already nailed it, it's called an Astrogator...
Or rather the Pilot is the co-pilot to the Astrogator, that does the difficult bit, jumping.

The Astrogator is also the default sensor operator, at least by tradition.

Actually the Engineer does the jumping, the Astrogator just has a cruisy job getting some figures (it's an easy roll they can take time on) and handing them to the Engineer/Jump Pilot

the actual pilot is almost as cruisy, only need to make rolls to land in an atmosphere (generally don't need to for a highport) and then only if there is bad weather...

 

[swordtart]

Whilst you may not need to make actual rolls, that doesn't mean they don't need to be there. Under the previous definition of skills you only need to make skill checks if it makes a difference. So that pilot or astrogator may be making hundreds of minor course corrections, system checks, observations and calculations but we just don't roll for them.

Much like going on a car journey. Most of us manage to complete hundreds of hours of mundane, non-challenging driving largely autonomically. We will be singing, listening to the radio, yelling at other drivers (or our kids), changing gear, braking, observing traffic laws, disobeying traffic laws etc. and for most of us if anyone asks how was the journey, we might recall that one time that idiot cut us up but the rest of the journey is a blur. We won't have made any skill checks for the majority of the journey, but if we had left the drivers seat while the car was in motion the trip would have got interesting really quickly.

Sometimes we only notice something when it isn't there anymore.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Actually the Engineer does the jumping, the Astrogator just has a cruisy job getting some figures (it's an easy roll they can take time on) and handing them to the Engineer/Jump Pilot

Sure, the Engineer actuates the jump drive, when and how the Astrogator directs.
The Astrogator calculates the Jump.

Both are Easy tasks, but the Astrogator always has a negative DM, and the Engineer presumably has a positive DM (unless doing something desperate). For a long jump the Astrogator task is definitely harder, unless jumping with unrefined fuel inside the 100D limit or something that stupid.

Neither task is of course supposed to fail under normal circumstances... Just take your time and auto-succeed.

 

[Anstett]

The Astrogator is the effective co-pilot because they double as a Navigator for in system travel.

From (I believe) SoM:
In crowded Systems an Astrogator can assist the Pilot in plotting efficient courses to various locations in the system. Some Astrogators develop a reputation for the preciseness of their Jumps with exclusive clubs for like-minded Astrogators to share information and tips. There are sectors that have competitions and wagering on an Astrogator's skills.

Dragonslayer Space | Main / Astrogation

 

[WHULorigan]

In J-Space there is nothing for any of the Operational Crew to do except the Engineers, other than stand a watch for any incidental panel notifications or advisories.

In N-Space, either the Pilot or Astronavigator sets the course, and it is fairly simple Newtonian mechanics (differential equations) to get from A to B along a trajectory, even with varying G-Fields under a constant acceleration/deceleration. This is something that should be fairly simple for the computer to handle, with occasional double-checks or corrections by the Pilot/Nav for the sake of command crew preferences. No need to have a pilot "at the controls" like an aircraft. Anything approaching the craft will be detectable from far away and can alert the crew ahead of time. Anything small enough to be undetectable in practical terms and be a danger until close proximity is likely not something they can maneuver out of the way of anyway. A co-pilot certainly is not needed, unless you are talking about a relief or back-up pilot. A pilot is most likely needed "on-hand" primarily for interface operations (i.e. atmosphere, docking, landing etc.), and there a co-pilot might be desirable (even though the computer is primarily assisting), and that co-pilot is likely the Astronavigator.

(Depending on your ruleset, I would assume as a GM at my table that an Astronavigator has either Pilot-0 or SensOps/Commo-0 as default secondary skills - either/or, or both depending on time in position and experience).

In Classic Traveller, N-Space Astronavigation was shared between Pilot Skill and Navigation Skill. The Pilot could pilot a starship/spaceship (or a Smallcraft at Pilot "-1") and could perform the necessary N-Space Astronavigation tasks. Navigation Skill could handle either N-Space Astronavigation tasks or J-Space Astronavigation tasks. Either could presumably do SensOps/Commo, though that was normally the billet of the Astronavigator if that was a crew position.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

You already nailed it, it's called an Astrogator...
Or rather the Pilot is the co-pilot to the Astrogator, that does the difficult bit, jumping.

The Astrogator is also the default sensor operator, at least by tradition.

But does the typical Astrogator have Pilot 0 or better?

But the game seems to assume a very great deal of automation because most ships don't have enough bridge crew to stand watches, unless they are quite large. So it's pretty clear that the computer is doing most of the watch standing.

Agreed that there is sufficient automation to call for a "body" when something shows up that is either anomalous or where the standard is to call the crew such as entering orbital control zones. Likely there are standard signals sent to ships by "control" to make sure the crew is called. However can it take over during landing especially at TL 9 if the pilot is unavailable?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Since the Astrogator basically does nothing, they should normally be the copilot. But the game seems to assume a very great deal of automation because most ships don't have enough bridge crew to stand watches, unless they are quite large. So it's pretty clear that the computer is doing most of the watch standing.

Actually, they do do something under the Mongoose rules and are, in fact, the co-pilot. Astrogation in Mongoose terms also covers normal space navigation.

 

[WHULorigan]

But also note this from MgT2 (2022) Core Rules, p.182:

SMALL STAR SHIPS
Spacecraft in the hands of small-time traders or adventurers usually run with the barest minimum of crew, with personnel often fulfilling more than one role as situations demand. For example, it is very common on a smaller ship for the pilot to also act as the astrogator or a steward to have basic medical skills. This keeps the monthly salary bill low and increases what may otherwise be very slim profits.

The skills may be separate skills in MgT, but a given crewmember may typically have both skillsets as part of his/her normal background training (maybe specializing in one or the other, but still often knowing both - or at least a pilot knowing astrogation).

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on actual task, which would require two sets of eyes.

Like, planetary take off and landing.

 

[Sageryne]

Here is an opinion most pilots won't like... the pilot is the backup. If you look at most modern aircraft, they can be programmed to take off, fly a pre-programmed route, and land, all without human intervention. That is at TL 7 or 8. We are already developing self-driving cars (and they operate in a far more chaotic environment).

I suspect, by TL 9 or 10, the ship's computer will be a better pilot than 95% of humans. By TL15, a sentient piloting a vessel will be looked at with horror as incredibly dangerous. Piloting will be a matter of telling the computer where you want to go, and by what route. The computer will plot it all and the pilot will press "accept."

The ship will likely have pre-programmed safety restrictions. Landing at starports or spacestations will be remotely controlled by the location's central space-traffic control facility.

Yes, when you are way out in the middle of nowhere, a pilot will still be important to have. But I would argue the only reason these roles exist is for roleplaying purposes.

- Kerry

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But does the typical Astrogator have Pilot 0 or better?

I would say chances are good. Space-bourne careers generally have fairly easy access Pilot, Astrogation, and Engineering.

I tend to strive to get both for bridge crew...

E.g. Scout service skills:

 

[MasterGwydion]

Here is an opinion most pilots won't like... the pilot is the backup. If you look at most modern aircraft, they can be programmed to take off, fly a pre-programmed route, and land, all without human intervention. That is at TL 7 or 8. We are already developing self-driving cars (and they operate in a far more chaotic environment).

I suspect, by TL 9 or 10, the ship's computer will be a better pilot than 95% of humans. By TL15, a sentient piloting a vessel will be looked at with horror as incredibly dangerous. Piloting will be a matter of telling the computer where you want to go, and by what route. The computer will plot it all and the pilot will press "accept."

The ship will likely have pre-programmed safety restrictions. Landing at starports or spacestations will be remotely controlled by the location's central space-traffic control facility.

Yes, when you are way out in the middle of nowhere, a pilot will still be important to have. But I would argue the only reason these roles exist is for roleplaying purposes.

- Kerry

I entirely agree, but sadly if we do it that way, Traveller ceases to exist in any recognizable form and Traveller is too cool and fun to play to let that happen to it.

 

[Sageryne]

I entirely agree, but sadly if we do it that way, Traveller ceases to exist in any recognizable form and Traveller is too cool and fun to play to let that happen to it.

Absolutely. We are playing so we can be Han Solo or Wash, not a pencil-neck button pusher....

Still, I make it pretty easy for my PCs to get software that will give them a Pilot-0 or Pilot-1 autopilot for the times when they do only need to go from a-to-b and the pilot PC is incapacitated.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Absolutely. We are playing so we can be Han Solo or Wash, not a pencil-neck button pusher....

Still, I make it pretty easy for my PCs to get software that will give them a Pilot-0 or Pilot-1 autopilot for the times when they do only need to go from a-to-b and the pilot PC is incapacitated.

If no one in My group has Pilot, I make them fly commercial.