Why is the Nemesis an Armageddon Level Ship ?

[Alexb83]

Well, the thing you have to consider is this: take the Dilgar for example, a race that was beaten by c. 2220s EA forces? How can their War choices even compare to a War choice from Crusade Era EA? They can't, or at least shouldn't.

When you compare the Nemesis to the Shadows or Vorlons or Ancients, or the Dilgar to the Centauri - you're missing the point, as these should never meet in combat (in service dates, anyone?). Similarly, the shadow omega fits a very limited game profile (one year in service). They do relate well to other EA ships in their own timeframes however, and their bonuses justify their cost (shadow omega vs. omega for instance).

The Nemesis isn't a great ship, IMO, but it isn't a bad ship either. Self repair, a great turn of speed and great fore armament, bonuses vs. stealth, a good hull and damage track. Let down by the usual low EA initiative and boresight... how is this any different to other EA ships?

 

[Voronesh]

It is dieefernt because oyu get 4 Omegas for every Shadow Omega.

And all of the sudden the ship is less than useless.

And fleets should not be based on ISD. There are tourneys to consider. if you want to keep a tourney culture within ACTA, stuff needs to be balanced on that as well.

And even in campaigns, people wont take a Nemesis if they can get 4 (think about it 4!!!) Marathons instead.

 

[Alexb83]

Well, armageddon ships are completely outside of consideration for tourneys, given the PL breakdown for points. They only need to be balanced for campaign purposes.

Frankly I don't see how /any/ of the Armageddon ships could be picked over 2 war ships from the same fleet, or 4 battle, like you say. But that's not to say that the nemesis is only worth a war slot - the molecular slicer, speed and other bonuses (non-slow-loading missiles anyone) put it way over the Omega CC.

Perhaps the balance issue should redress where some of the more powerful raid and battle ships are?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Well, the thing you have to consider is this: take the Dilgar for example, a race that was beaten by c. 2220s EA forces? How can their War choices even compare to a War choice from Crusade Era EA? They can't, or at least shouldn't.

When you compare the Nemesis to the Shadows or Vorlons or Ancients, or the Dilgar to the Centauri - you're missing the point, as these should never meet in combat (in service dates, anyone?). Similarly, the shadow omega fits a very limited game profile (one year in service). They do relate well to other EA ships in their own timeframes however, and their bonuses justify their cost (shadow omega vs. omega for instance).

The Nemesis isn't a great ship, IMO, but it isn't a bad ship either. Self repair, a great turn of speed and great fore armament, bonuses vs. stealth, a good hull and damage track. Let down by the usual low EA initiative and boresight... how is this any different to other EA ships?

Centauri in servide dates wouldn't rule a lot out for games involving the Dilgar. They never met in combat in the source material because the Dilgar weren't stupid enough to take on the Centauri Republic at the height of their power. They picked on the weak League races.

 

[Triggy]

No to the Shadow Omega.

The Omega itself will probably have seen quite a few upgrades. Apply shadow grafts and you get a 300% increase in power?

Sorry for that although the length of time doesn't change at all either way!

 

[katadder]

the high speed of the nemesis is actually a drawkback when trying to line up that boresight.

 

[Tank]

Yup, its true what they say, speed kills

 

[Voronesh]

True Triggy.

but we can assume that the Omega we use is one currently up to date on its refits. (discounting campaign refits...) So the simple judicious use of shadow black box grafting gets a 300% efficiency boost, that puts it on equal footing to Shadow ships?......

And i simply think that centuries of tech advancement isnt something that a few black box thingies used by EA can push the fleet beyond capabilities of all the other races out there. Every single one of them, no other race out there during the Crusade era has a cruiser doing armageddon lvl work.

@Alexb83

Comparing the weak armageddon lvl ships against an even weaker war lvl ship isnt going to do much good. Armageddon lvl ships need to well balanced like tourney ships, not because they will be used there. But rather because all the battle lvl ships will be, and even the occasional war lvl ship.

Which in turn backlashes into friendly campaigns. So any time someone fields a Nemesis everybody else will go: "Cool model, too sad it wont survive second turn, IF my forces deign it with any attention."

Now personally i couldnt care less about Armageddon lvl ships, which are totally uinderpowered. Simply means that there is little incentive to buy such a ship. The models range from acceptable to hideous. For that kind of money i WILL go elsewhere. And if there is little battlefield value to them, it simply means, that i will not lose a single battle because of my decision NOT to buy them.

 

[Triggy]

True Triggy.

but we can assume that the Omega we use is one currently up to date on its refits. (discounting campaign refits...) So the simple judicious use of shadow black box grafting gets a 300% efficiency boost, that puts it on equal footing to Shadow ships?......

And i simply think that centuries of tech advancement isnt something that a few black box thingies used by EA can push the fleet beyond capabilities of all the other races out there. Every single one of them, no other race out there during the Crusade era has a cruiser doing armageddon lvl work.

@Alexb83

Comparing the weak armageddon lvl ships against an even weaker war lvl ship isnt going to do much good. Armageddon lvl ships need to well balanced like tourney ships, not because they will be used there. But rather because all the battle lvl ships will be, and even the occasional war lvl ship.

Which in turn backlashes into friendly campaigns. So any time someone fields a Nemesis everybody else will go: "Cool model, too sad it wont survive second turn, IF my forces deign it with any attention."

Now personally i couldnt care less about Armageddon lvl ships, which are totally uinderpowered. Simply means that there is little incentive to buy such a ship. The models range from acceptable to hideous. For that kind of money i WILL go elsewhere. And if there is little battlefield value to them, it simply means, that i will not lose a single battle because of my decision NOT to buy them.

Maybe it's a good thing the Shadow Omega is only rated Armageddon but it has War stats. If you look closely and realise this then you'll see that it's only a 100% increase in capability!

 

[Voronesh]

Hehe yer thats right.

And a good point to simply make it a war vessel.

And the Warlock too. would solve the Crusade era EA problem of not having a decent war lvl WARship. The Nemesis can stay where it is, and get a big backgroundstory of being propped full of shadowtech.

Or simply the in space equivalent of a necromancers dark tomb with tortured souls :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: .

 

[Triggy]

Hehe yer thats right.

And a good point to simply make it a war vessel.

And the Warlock too. would solve the Crusade era EA problem of not having a decent war lvl WARship. The Nemesis can stay where it is, and get a big backgroundstory of being propped full of shadowtech.

Or simply the in space equivalent of a necromancers dark tomb with tortured souls :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: .

I think a lot of people would be happy with the SFoS Warlock stats and at War level. Keep the Nemesis at Armageddon and it still gives EA a good deal of choice in their fleet selections.

 

[katadder]

Hehe yer thats right.

And a good point to simply make it a war vessel.

And the Warlock too. would solve the Crusade era EA problem of not having a decent war lvl WARship. The Nemesis can stay where it is, and get a big backgroundstory of being propped full of shadowtech.

Or simply the in space equivalent of a necromancers dark tomb with tortured souls :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: .

I think a lot of people would be happy with the SFoS Warlock stats and at War level. Keep the Nemesis at Armageddon and it still gives EA a good deal of choice in their fleet selections.

ture, altho the nemesis also needs some upgrades to stay there. more crew/damage for starters, maybe 110 of each at least. i would also give it a light phased multicutter to the front arc as well as the heavy phasing pulse so pleny of forward guns. give it command +2 as well, this is supposed to be an advanced ship, can guess commanders would go on it. also increase the range of the cutters and pulse to 15"

 

[Alexb83]

The boresight on the molecular cutter lets it down, but dont forget it can fire any of the missile variants every turn, including the long range beasties (also 40 inches). I forget this in my little playtest. Gives it good firepower in the forward arc out to long range, and plenty of options as it closes also.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

How can it change missile loads during play?

 

[Triggy]

Hehe yer thats right.

And a good point to simply make it a war vessel.

And the Warlock too. would solve the Crusade era EA problem of not having a decent war lvl WARship. The Nemesis can stay where it is, and get a big backgroundstory of being propped full of shadowtech.

Or simply the in space equivalent of a necromancers dark tomb with tortured souls :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: .

I think a lot of people would be happy with the SFoS Warlock stats and at War level. Keep the Nemesis at Armageddon and it still gives EA a good deal of choice in their fleet selections.

ture, altho the nemesis also needs some upgrades to stay there. more crew/damage for starters, maybe 110 of each at least. i would also give it a light phased multicutter to the front arc as well as the heavy phasing pulse so pleny of forward guns. give it command +2 as well, this is supposed to be an advanced ship, can guess commanders would go on it. also increase the range of the cutters and pulse to 15"

I agree with a minimum change of the crew going up to 110 or 120 although I'd let self-repair do the rest for damage. The other changes I wouldn't be opposed to but the crew one seems so obvious I'm annoyed this wasn't seen (for so many ships too).

 

[Alexb83]

How can it change missile loads during play?

Hmm, good point - it only has the one missile rack, doesn't it :S

The options it has as it closes are its other weapons (which may not have great range but have plenty of AD). The long range missile really extends the lethality of the Nemesis over the 40 inch range. If you ever /did/ win initiative, you could put out an awful lot of (precise) firepower, not just the boresight.

HARM missiles are nice, if a bit short ranged. But they'd be a safe bet against the minbari, since you can actually close range with a nemesis quite easily, especially in a straight up game of CTA. Then again, with the new stealth rules any stealth 5 ship would be down to stealth 3 anyway within 15 inches, wouldn't it? (or is it 8 inches?)

 

[Goldritter]

HARM missiles are nice, if a bit short ranged. But they'd be a safe bet against the minbari, since you can actually close range with a nemesis quite easily, especially in a straight up game of CTA. Then again, with the new stealth rules any stealth 5 ship would be down to stealth 3 anyway within 15 inches, wouldn't it? (or is it 8 inches?)

But to use the HARM you must beat the Stealth too.
So is it not better to make damage and hope for crits as hit the Sharlin and hope it don´t roll a 2+, 3+ or 4+ (dependent on range) ?

And the 1d6 Self repair of the Nemesis is only a light advantage. If you take the average roll of 3 an average length of 6 rounds for a game it gets 18 extra Damage Points so it have 113 Damage points in average by 85 crew. And then this only, if the Nemesis survives the entire 6 rounds.
(2 Sharlins need fewer than 4 rounds to kill it. What will happen, if there is realy a big fleet engagement ?)

And again in a campaign the Self Repair reduce only the cost for repair of Damage Points, but Crits, Crew and Uncripple you must pay.
If the Ship survives with only 3 Damage Points and 3 Crew you pay 11 RR to get the Crew back.
If you have Crits you pay 1(2) RR per Crit and 5 RR to uncripple the ship.
(In the Rulesmaster section it was said, that the Self-Repair never "uncripple" a ship.)

And it´s interesting, that in battle you can repair normal Crits with a roll, but out of a battle you must pay RRs.

And if you consider, that a Armageddon Ship cost 40 RR to buy and a War-Level Ship 25 and a Battle 20, it´s not worth to take a Nemesis.
Because I get 2 Marathons.
(I don´t know, why they change the 5 RR step between the levels to a 15 RR step between War and Armageddon.)

So I don´t see a real reason to take a Nemesis in a campaign. It cost too much (RR and Level Points) for it´s low stats.

 

[H]

Hehe yer thats right.

And a good point to simply make it a war vessel.

And the Warlock too. would solve the Crusade era EA problem of not having a decent war lvl WARship. The Nemesis can stay where it is, and get a big backgroundstory of being propped full of shadowtech.

Or simply the in space equivalent of a necromancers dark tomb with tortured souls :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: .

I think a lot of people would be happy with the SFoS Warlock stats and at War level. Keep the Nemesis at Armageddon and it still gives EA a good deal of choice in their fleet selections.

ture, altho the nemesis also needs some upgrades to stay there. more crew/damage for starters, maybe 110 of each at least. i would also give it a light phased multicutter to the front arc as well as the heavy phasing pulse so pleny of forward guns. give it command +2 as well, this is supposed to be an advanced ship, can guess commanders would go on it. also increase the range of the cutters and pulse to 15"

you forgot to give it stealth 6, and an autocloner to self repair 1D6 crew per turn! :wink:

 

[Alexb83]

Well, in a large fleet engagement (i.e. not 2 war on 1 armageddon) the Nemesis will be able to target things with its boresight every turn, and the molecular slicer is nothing to sniff at. Minbari are a bit of an extreme example because they have stealth to counter, and stealth really sets them apart from everyone else (as well as that +4 initiative), even if the nemesis has HEL.

Pair a nemesis up with a few Delphis (unlimited scout range) and it could do some serious harm to minbari, in any case. Also, the delphis are a good initiative sink which will allow you to bring that boresight on to targets, with a reasonable surety (more than most would get anyways) of beating stealth.

It's an okay ship all round - a 40 inch molecular slicer? The shadows dont even get that!
But I think we're singling it out unfairly. I don't think that there's any armageddon ship which presents a straight choice over 2 war ships in the same fleet, period. Who would take Ka'bin'tak over 2 Bin'tak? Who would take Neroon over a Sharlin, a Morshin and a Tinashi? (or the advanced beam variants)?

 

[Goldritter]

Do you findig it odd too, that Boresight Weapons has two weaknesses ?
First the line firing arc and than the low AD.
If I look at the Laser on Narn and EA ships an compare it with Centauri, there the Centauri have more AD and a better firing arc.

Or have I something overseen ?