Why is the Nemesis an Armageddon Level Ship ?

[katadder]

well the new EA ships get a TD beam with alot further range. the ka'bin'tak also has a 4AD TD weapon to its front arcat the same range as the centauri besides its boresight beam. in fact alot of ships get TD weapons at armageddon level. the brivoki matches the number of dice the adira has with just its heavycombat laser, then it gets to add in the advanced graviton beam every other turn, another TD weapon and both of these are front arc. the more i look at that ship the nastier it seems, pity it looks like a big green brick.

 

[Goldritter]

well the new EA ships get a TD beam with alot further range. the ka'bin'tak also has a 4AD TD weapon to its front arcat the same range as the centauri besides its boresight beam. in fact alot of ships get TD weapons at armageddon level. the brivoki matches the number of dice the adira has with just its heavycombat laser, then it gets to add in the advanced graviton beam every other turn, another TD weapon and both of these are front arc. the more i look at that ship the nastier it seems, pity it looks like a big green brick.

O.K the beam on the Marathon is 25", but with 12" Speed and 2/45° turns it´s not so a hard problem.
And yes the Brivoki is a killer 8 AP/B/SL/TD and 8 B/DD/P/SAP is hard and it´s all in the front Arc. The 16 AD TL front on 8" doesn´t count so much.
Lucky it´s range is 20" and 24" and the Speed of the ship is only 6".

The Brivoki and the Adira are on the upper end of the Armageddon Level and the Nemesis (and Neroon) on the lower end.

 

[Voronesh]

Id mention the VCD of being upper end too.

Not because of its firepower, but rather of its inabilty to die sometimes.....

 

[Goldritter]

And where to put the Warlock and the Ka`Bin`Tak ?

I think,

Lower End:
Nemesis, Neroon, Warlock

Middle:
Ka`Bin`Tak

Upper End:
Adira, Victory, Brivoki

Agree, Disagree ?

 

[Alexb83]

The warlock's a cut above the Nemesis - command +2, starfuries rather than thunderbolts (allowing the choice to upgrade). Broader fore arc armament.

The letdown is the lack of the MB weaponry all-round, which the Nemesis has, and the slow loading missile rack.

As for the Neroon - hmm. The beams are the best in the game (precise, super AP, TD, 36 inches) and it has one in every arc. The carrier ability is fantastic, as is command +1. Its anti-fighter/secondary armament is massive. Its big letdown is the fact that it's hull 5, not 6, and stealth 4+, not 5+ - all of this coupled with a really, really poor hull and crew track.

I think I'll have to try playing with it, but I might put the Neroon and Warlock up to the middle, though that would be a stretch for either.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Don't forget the Neroon's uber-beams come with low AD.

 

[Alexb83]

Yes, unfortunately all of the Minbari ships which get the enhanced neutron lasers suffer a loss of AD over their standard counterparts (usually a loss of AD in their secondary guns, to book - Sharkaan, Shantavi?).

But in the Neroon's case, she has plenty of neutron cannon dice (12 in every arc?) plus 8 Nials and 2 Flyers to go with it.

I think three Shantavis and a Morshin would do you more proud than a Neroon (even with the 25 inch range) - it only takes 10 more points to cripple the Neroon compared to the Tinashi variants, which all have 10 extra crew before a threshold. And you can get four of them for every neroon.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Thing with the Neroon is, and others have noted this, that it's neither fish nor fowl. It's not a heavy battleship and it's not a super-carrier, but something in between. So it lacks the guns and armour to stand up to true dreadnoughts and it lacks the fighters to be a super-carrier.

 

[Alexb83]

I think it's pretty well noted in the ship description in the Armageddon book

Oddly though, the Marathon doesn't seem to suffer any detriments for its malfunctioning 'brain' which would match its description - seems a very nice ship.

It's somewhat strange that the Minbari are falling behind in the tech race - both EA and Minbari ought to stay a step ahead of the other races together, since in 1 million years time they'll be 'second ones' and the others wont. I know it's not solely a technological thing (and the two races may have merged into one by then) but still...

The minbari still have a really solid fleet in the raid through war brackets. Hopefully in the future the worker and religious castes will get more involved in the ship design process

 

[Burger]

I get why the Neroon is a bit of a jack of all trades, but 50 crew just sucks for an Armageddon ship. It needs either: stealth 6+, hull 6, adaptive armour, or just more damage/crew.

Compare it to the Victory. It totally sucks.

 

[Alexb83]

Adaptive armour would be a good start - the Minbari ought to gain /something/ from their technological gestalt with the Vorlons and their building experience with the White Star Fleet. The earthers and ISA seem to have gotten all of the new toys.

Thinking about it, shouldn't the White Star be available to the Minbari, too? They do build them, afterall.

 

[katadder]

i think stealth 6 would put the neroon firmly into armageddon level instead of being what it is and that would be al lthe fix it needs. as for someone who said it was stealth 4 earlier, its actually stealth 5.

 

[Triggy]

And where to put the Warlock and the Ka`Bin`Tak ?

I think,

Lower End:
Nemesis, Neroon, Warlock

Middle:
Ka`Bin`Tak

Upper End:
Adira, Victory, Brivoki

Agree, Disagree ?

Don't forget the Shadows and Vorlons... (btw I think the Warlock is there if on its own but if it is supported by a fleet then it's actually of middling value). Also, the upper end is probably just "good" rather than "broken" for the most part, same as middle is probably "OK" rather than "underpowered".

Lower End:
Nemesis, Neroon, Shadow Ship

Middle:
Ka`Bin`Tak, Warlock, Vorlon Heavy Cruiser

Upper End:
Adira, Victory, Brivoki

 

[Triggy]

i think stealth 6 would put the neroon firmly into armageddon level instead of being what it is and that would be al lthe fix it needs. as for someone who said it was stealth 4 earlier, its actually stealth 5.

How about simply giving it a crew score higher than its damage rating (same for the Nemesis too). Then it'd at least be in the middle category, even if not in the upper end.

 

[Burger]

i think stealth 6 would put the neroon firmly into armageddon level instead of being what it is and that would be al lthe fix it needs. as for someone who said it was stealth 4 earlier, its actually stealth 5.

How about simply giving it a crew score higher than its damage rating (same for the Nemesis too). Then it'd at least be in the middle category, even if not in the upper end.

Higher than a Veshatan would be a start!!!

 

[Locutus9956]

I think Id have to put the Vorlon heavy into the upper region personally, the thing is a monster of insane firepower and ludicrous toughness. As it should be

And you cant even swamp it with fighters any more

ps. that actually brings up a minor question Ive meant to ask, does the vorlon energy pulse kill fighters the moment they move (ie before the fighters can fire...) or does it fire like a weapon on the vorlon ships initiative step. If its the first of these that might actually be verging on too good as it makes it better than any other races antifighter systems these days....

 

[Alexb83]

I think of the discharge gun as the charged field between the 4 pylons, which arcs out to hit any fighters coming near to the ship (I think you see this happen to shadow fighters when they engage the vorlons).

Might be better if it only worked in the forward and side arcs... well, not better for the Vorlons, obviously.

 

[Burger]

ps. that actually brings up a minor question Ive meant to ask, does the vorlon energy pulse kill fighters the moment they move (ie before the fighters can fire...) or does it fire like a weapon on the vorlon ships initiative step. If its the first of these that might actually be verging on too good as it makes it better than any other races antifighter systems these days....

It fires as soon as the fighter completes its movement. Its just a 1AD AF attack, not insta-death but fairly effective.

 

[Locutus9956]

no it may not be insta death as such but how many fighters are likely to live against ANY sort of attack without their dodge? (I assume it ignore stealth too?)

As the the discharge gun, thats actually fired from the front of the central hull bit, the 4 arms are the lightning cannon it just can do all sorts of fancy trickery with it as seen in that episode (you could actually do that with lightning cannons in B5Wars, and it was a rather horribly effective trick )

for the record I know I may be bringing up B5Wars alot lately but when talking about Vorlons in particular (and shadows) I will go furhter than my usual 'I prefer B5Wars slightly' attitude, to say that in their case B5Wars was WAY WAY better than ACTA

 

[Alexb83]

It may as well ignore stealth - it's a vorlon (+1 vs stealth), within 8 inches (further +1?). Takes the typical Nial down to 3+?

The best bet with fighters is to get in and skin dance the Vorlon, if you can, or sit outside 2 inches and shoot him with your 4 inch range.