What got me thinking along these lines was how it's done in Pendragon. That has the ability to add to characteristics as a training option, but Size can't increase that way after Age 21 and other stats can't normally increase once ageing starts (usually 35. Although Pendragon doesn't have mental stats either - just personality ones and skills).
Why is Aging worse in Traveller than in 2300 AD?
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
Personality changes over time in Pendragon - it is just two-ended in opposing pairs, so they can all go up and down. Passions, Traits and Skills change with Experience checks. Characteristics are changed with Training during Winter Phase. In Runequest (classic), there was actually a big emphasis on raising Characteristic scores (aside from Size and Intelligence) through training. This training would actually require monetary funding - and actually has more in common with classic Traveller rules than many people assume.
I think in Traveller, the big difference is the use of technology to artificially raise Characteristic and Skill scores - which again directly links improvements to wealth.
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Yeah, I only mentioned the mental side of things in Pendragon to be complete. Really, it doesn't have an equivalent to INT or EDU loss. OTOH, Pendragon characters typically die or retire before 50 anyway.
Medical hacks to boost characteristics are more likely than not to be bad for long term health, too. We can already see that a little in the rule for medical treatment penalised if lower TL than any enhancements installed. A TL16 super cyborg pretty much has to hang around a TL16 world or they'll eventually become unrepairable.
Medical hacks to boost characteristics are more likely than not to be bad for long term health, too. We can already see that a little in the rule for medical treatment penalised if lower TL than any enhancements installed. A TL16 super cyborg pretty much has to hang around a TL16 world or they'll eventually become unrepairable.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Or just keep a TL-16 workshop, robotics laboratory, or autodoc on your ship. The whole ship doesn't need to be TL-16, just the part that fixes the super-cyborg...
That will help, but supplies will be consumed. Periodic returns to the TL16 planet are likely to be required every so often.
That is also one of the reasons somewhere like Vincennes or Darrian can't affect much far away from them. They can make *better* TL15 or lower stuff that can be maintained elsewhere, and that's important, but anything that requires TL16 has to come back there to be replaced, or repaired if TL16 parts run out.
That is also one of the reasons somewhere like Vincennes or Darrian can't affect much far away from them. They can make *better* TL15 or lower stuff that can be maintained elsewhere, and that's important, but anything that requires TL16 has to come back there to be replaced, or repaired if TL16 parts run out.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I'd bet that the TL16 ship parts will be available in Class A yards within a dozen parsecs. It will spread, though slowly.
Adjacent subsectors, sure. And over time, yes. But until it uplifts other hubs to TL16, there will be limits. Plus, I'd think only TL15 starports would be able to manage it at all. That seems like a fair thing.
My understanding is that Vincennes reaching TL16 is too recent for that to have happened much before things fall apart. And Darrian itself has well described limitations on its TL16.
Because the Imperium (especially the armed forces) is established as having a normal limit of TL15, the TL15 ships don't run into the problem, but the same principles could apply in other polities that have a lower established TL.
Aslan are usually presented as TL14. The Zho are as well, but may be more like 14.5 and seem to have plenty of TL15 worlds. In both cases I'd expect a TL15 ship may struggle to get repairs, even aside from different standards and alien designs.
Edit: Okay, Vincennes clicked over to TL16 in 1090. So by any stretch of the imagination is only in the early stages of it. If we compare TL5, which clicks over to TL6 with Atomics, Imperial Navy (etc) is late WW2, but Vincennes is early space age.
My understanding is that Vincennes reaching TL16 is too recent for that to have happened much before things fall apart. And Darrian itself has well described limitations on its TL16.
Because the Imperium (especially the armed forces) is established as having a normal limit of TL15, the TL15 ships don't run into the problem, but the same principles could apply in other polities that have a lower established TL.
Aslan are usually presented as TL14. The Zho are as well, but may be more like 14.5 and seem to have plenty of TL15 worlds. In both cases I'd expect a TL15 ship may struggle to get repairs, even aside from different standards and alien designs.
Edit: Okay, Vincennes clicked over to TL16 in 1090. So by any stretch of the imagination is only in the early stages of it. If we compare TL5, which clicks over to TL6 with Atomics, Imperial Navy (etc) is late WW2, but Vincennes is early space age.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I can agree with this.
Having said all that, OF COURSE the Navy is going to secure as many advanced ships and tech as they can. Even if it can't have any realistic effect on fleet sized matters yet, they'll be super keen to test new prototype ideas, put into production designs already prototyped at TL15 and assemble special mission ships. But numbers of all that stuff will necessarily be small... brand new ship designs take a while, then need to be tested a lot before production can start. If a campaign is pre-FFW, I'd not expect to see too much, but you'd also expect the FFW would have given a kick to development in this area, so that era up to Rebellion is probably the brief golden age of Vincennes' superiority. We know they are badly affected by the reaction against Virus, so if that is part of your campaign their bubble bursts.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Not part of my campaign, thank goodness. Never liked Virus.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Vincennes has been TL16 for quite a while in 1105, it is borderline TL17 by TNE (at least until Mongoose retcons it)
By 1125 quite a few Imperial worlds have achieved TL16, they wouldn't stay that way for long though
Darrian is mislabeled, it is a TL13 world that imports TL15 stuff from the Imperium. It has relic TL16 tech that it no longer understands or can produce, and is likely why they have such a good trade deal with the Imperium.
As things currently stand in the OTU now there is an inflection point. The events of Singularity could lead to a very different future for the Third Imperium.
By 1125 quite a few Imperial worlds have achieved TL16, they wouldn't stay that way for long though
Darrian is mislabeled, it is a TL13 world that imports TL15 stuff from the Imperium. It has relic TL16 tech that it no longer understands or can produce, and is likely why they have such a good trade deal with the Imperium.
As things currently stand in the OTU now there is an inflection point. The events of Singularity could lead to a very different future for the Third Imperium.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
An inaccurate UWP Code??? Say it ain't so!Vincennes has been TL16 for quite a while in 1105, it is borderline TL17 by TNE (at least until Mongoose retcons it)
By 1125 quite a few Imperial worlds have achieved TL16, they wouldn't stay that way for long though
Darrian is mislabeled, it is a TL13 world that imports TL15 stuff from the Imperium. It has relic TL16 tech that it no longer understands or can produce, and is likely why they have such a good trade deal with the Imperium.
As things currently stand in the OTU now there is an inflection point. The events of Singularity could lead to a very different future for the Third Imperium.
Mongoose would never let that happen!
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It was GDW, they had Darrian as TL16 and then:
"Darrian itself is an old decaying world depending on its past as a resource; art objects are a major export, although strictly controlled. Many local buildings and complexes are tech level G, but the technology to maintain them has been lost."
"Darrian itself is an old decaying world depending on its past as a resource; art objects are a major export, although strictly controlled. Many local buildings and complexes are tech level G, but the technology to maintain them has been lost."
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
The Maghiz happened almost 2,000 years ago. Given the maintenance rules in Traveller, none of their TL-16 stuff should function anymore. So, how are they still TL-16? All of that infrastructure should be gone.
Because TL-16 is magic. One has to assume the TL-16 toys that have survived are mostly self-repairing or, like that notorious fleet, were mothballed so well that they were preserved. Was Nivenesque stasis involved with the Darrian relic fleet??
"Quite a while" being 15 years. But yeah, that's long enough for them to have a fair few advances that are in full use. But no adult yet exists who was born in a TL16 society there.Vincennes has been TL16 for quite a while in 1105, it is borderline TL17 by TNE (at least until Mongoose retcons it)
By 1125 quite a few Imperial worlds have achieved TL16, they wouldn't stay that way for long though
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Or one has to assume that the writer was a moron who wanted TL-16 McGuffins for his story, but didn't want crap for the PCs and Referees. By making the Maghiz almost 2,000 years ago, the writer is guaranteeing that none of the TL-16 pre-Maghiz tech is worth anything, except for special cases defined by the writer. Darriens or Darrians or Daryens, are stupid. Same with the TL-16 Aslan world, except they can actually produce TL-16 items, but again, no one can use them for "reasons" So, with the exception of Vincennes, every TL-16 world is just a BS McGuffin.
So, it is a whole planet of Millennials, straddling the divide between tech levels. Congrats! lol Look at cellphones. How fast did We go from having no communication to being in communication 24/7? How fast did We go from, "Let Me go to the library" to " Hold up! Let Me check Google"?
15 years is not nothing, as I said. But it's still a short stretch of a lifetime and that's only in 1105. Things are presumably a little different a decade later in 1115, after the war but before the Rebellion.
We do not have any way to judge exactly how far Vincennes is between TL16 and TL17 at any one date. But unlike say an Imperial TL14 planet that is progressing towards TL15 they do not have much help. MAYBE they get some ideas from Darrian. PERHAPS Ancient artifacts can put them on the path of a technology. SOMETIMES ideas from lower tech worlds are ones they can develop that the source world cannot. Research and development all takes time, let alone prototyping, testing and replacement.
You sound very triggered today, MG. Everything okay at home?
We do not have any way to judge exactly how far Vincennes is between TL16 and TL17 at any one date. But unlike say an Imperial TL14 planet that is progressing towards TL15 they do not have much help. MAYBE they get some ideas from Darrian. PERHAPS Ancient artifacts can put them on the path of a technology. SOMETIMES ideas from lower tech worlds are ones they can develop that the source world cannot. Research and development all takes time, let alone prototyping, testing and replacement.
You sound very triggered today, MG. Everything okay at home?
NOLATrav
Emperor Mongoose
Taken in or out of context, that’s pretty damn harsh.
As time goes by I feel more and more that this is not the game you’re looking for. You seem very dissatisfied with so many aspects of it.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I am a new grandfather. Two of My daughters gave birth within the last 2 weeks and they are all staying at My home for the next few weeks. I had forgotten the joys of having two newborns in the same house.
I haven't slept in a while.
Just seems to Me to have caused more problems in the universe than it fixed. I am a big fan of playing by the rules. Every time a writer writes an "exception to the rule", it becomes less and less a rule. Eventually you have rules that mean nothing, like the UWPs. I just believe in improving things over time as through years of playing we find "holes" in the rules, or things that were poorly considered before being implemented. I am totally against copying and pasting mistakes from previous books over into new ones as well as writers not obeying the game rules when wrting their material for publication. At their home tables, do whatever they want, obviously, but in things they submit for publication should follow the rules. Mongoose should also have at least one person on staff whose job it is to make sure that new material doesn't contradict old material except in cases of intention retcons. Out of all of the game companies in the market, I believe that Mongoose has the best chance of actually accomplishing that.
I am a new grandfather. Two of My daughters gave birth within the last 2 weeks and they are all staying at My home for the next few weeks. I had forgotten the joys of having two newborns in the same house.
I haven't slept in a while.
Congratulations. And sorry for your loss... of sleep
Well, the 3I SETTING RULE was and basically is that TL15 is the usual maximum, and anything above that is special and rare. That may not apply to YTU, or your version of the 3I. It is not an actual Traveller rule as such.
So, given that the setting rule exists, but TL16 worlds turn up now and then, they are puzzle worlds to be explained; especially in respect to the question "how come every world isn't like that?". Because they are special and rare, the answers vary.
Vincennes is explained as a regular industrial powerhouse that reached TL16 15 years ago. It's the way of the future, but the future isn't here yet.
Darrian is a Relic, although depending on what secrets you want to run with they may not be showing their full hand either.
Other worlds might have developed their alien technologies in isolation and may be lacking in areas such as Interstellar drives or AI, but use antimatter to power their cyborg armies.
