Why I love Conan (Conan vs 4th edition)

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

They SW Saga was only the test bed for 4e. They stole nothing.

The problems of 4e is, that it is a leap backwards to the beginning of RPGs:
- weaker skill system than 3.xe
- all classes are equal
- complex character development is not possible (something almost all modern RPGs have)
- races have no weaknesses anymore
- monstrous characters are not possible (that kills some very interesting NPCs that were possible in 3.xe)
- EDIT: not backwards compatible (you cannot use 3.xe or earlier material for 4e). Several other RPG (Runequest, Midgard, DSA (partially), GURPS etc.) which have more than one edition are partially or complete backwards compatible.

And the biggest mistake is the new licence. It's a try to give them back the monopoly they've lost during 3.xe. And it hinders the development of new campaign settings by other companies. (Looking back it was a big mistake to sell WotC to Hasbro.) That will lead to the decline of D&D and the rise of other RPGs. Perhapsw even the development of several new RPGs.

 

[rabindranath72]

They SW Saga was only the test bed for 4e. They stole nothing.

The problems of 4e is, that it is a leap backwards to the beginning of RPGs:
- weaker skill system than 3.xe
- all classes are equal
- complex character development is not possible (something almost all modern RPGs have)
- races have no weaknesses anymore
- monstrous characters are not possible (that kills some very interesting NPCs that were possible in 3.xe)

Exactly the reasons why I like 4e: a leap backward to the roots of RPGs with a modern twist. Tastes, I suppose
Truth be told, the monstrous characters are in the MM. There is plenty of them, actually (more than 10 races). But also in this respect, 4e is a return to the roots; Gary Gygax strongly suggested not using monstrous characters in his DMG, and actually the "standard" setting of 4e closely resembles the setting idea outlined in (A)D&D.

 

[Malcadon]

So you bought the books and read them at least?

Bought? I did not pay a cent for it! You can find all the core books online in the Pirated Document Format, or .PDF files.

And yes, the game is MMORPG-wanabe, Dragonpunk wank!

 

[rabindranath72]

So you bought the books and read them at least?

Bought? I did not pay a cent for it! You can find all the core books online in the Pirated Document Format, or .PDF files.

And yes, the game is MMORPG-wanabe, Dragonpunk wank!

Oh right...
Luckily with the death of 3.x, the dungeon punk days are gone!

 

[Diabolus]

Exactly the reasons why I like 4e: a leap backward to the roots of RPGs with a modern twist. Tastes, I suppose
Truth be told, the monstrous characters are in the MM. There is plenty of them, actually (more than 10 races). But also in this respect, 4e is a return to the roots; Gary Gygax strongly suggested not using monstrous characters in his DMG, and actually the "standard" setting of 4e closely resembles the setting idea outlined in (A)D&D.

What? dragon-people, angel-elves, and half-demons as player races were the roots of D&D? I must have missed that part.

 

[rabindranath72]

Exactly the reasons why I like 4e: a leap backward to the roots of RPGs with a modern twist. Tastes, I suppose
Truth be told, the monstrous characters are in the MM. There is plenty of them, actually (more than 10 races). But also in this respect, 4e is a return to the roots; Gary Gygax strongly suggested not using monstrous characters in his DMG, and actually the "standard" setting of 4e closely resembles the setting idea outlined in (A)D&D.

What? dragon-people, angel-elves, and half-demons as player races were the roots of D&D? I must have missed that part.

Yep, you missed the good Dr. Holmes suggestions in his D&D boxed set (before AD&D) where he suggests an adventuring party composed by humans, elves, halflings, dwarves, a centaur, a lawful werebear and a Japanese Samurai fighting man. Not worse than a tiefling and a dragonborn, isn't it?

Oh, and elves are fey (as in actual folklore), not angels

 

[Hervé]

I'm missing something here...

So the DD4 is total crap and looks like a video game?
Strange, I had exactly the same feelings about the 3rd and 3.5 Ed :mrgreen:

We don't have to care about dragon men and half demons, as they belong to the D&D setting, not to Conan's. We should compare what can be compared. We should discuss about the rules instead of wondering why there are no Hyrkanians in Star Wars...

From the beginning (some 30 years ago), I've always found D&D quite ridiculous with those unrealistic levels of experience, those rigid character classes, or those sheer amounts of HPs, those stupid monsters, tons of treasures, spells and magic items. The system change that came with the 3rd Ed didn't change the basics: all this silly stuff was still there... It was only more complicated.

Now comes the 4th Ed.
It's always the same s**t.
So I can't really understand what you're all complaining about... :?

 

[Ichabod]

Yeah, I don't really get the complaints about 4E either. There are those who would argue that D&D has always been at heart the same game - tactical wargame optimized for dungeon crawling and better suited to being computerized. That it was played differently in the past had more to do with player expectations than with mechanics.

The mechanics have changed over time, of course. The movement to me seems clear enough as players looking for more depth to their roleplaying (like what could be found in other systems that better tailored their games to capture a particular fantasy flavor) added clunkier and clunkier mechanics, new rules, new races, new options* until WotC realized that the complexity increase needed to be curbed. At least to me, 4E looks like an effort to undue some of what 3.0 introduced.

* AD&D 1E to Unearthed Arcana to AD&D 2E to 3.0. Feats and skills seemed to be a real attempt to move AD&D away from just being a dungeon crawl game but (IMO) only served to overcomplicate a game that had its niche.

Personally, I prefer RPGs that lend themselves better to making cool characters who do cool things ... per my definition of cool. But, plenty of people like dungeon crawls, tabletop versions of computer games, wargaming with individual characters, and whatnot to where 4E seems to make perfect sense assuming the marketing people think that any tabletop game that plays like a MMORPG can survive the MMORPG competition.

For instance, I'm playing session two of the 4E intro module tomorrow because the rollplayers [sic] I hang with like d20 and/or D&D style games. I could easily see the Conan group playing 4E as well because it's not an obsession with Conan that led to our campaign but the ability to grok D&D with an interest in what is essentially a 3.5 variant. I couldn't see at all our Conan group switching to RuneQuest, C&C, FUDGE, Savage Worlds, or any of the numerous other systems tossed around here because the majority of our players don't have any problem with D&Desque games.

 

[GamerDude]

... and the fact that the micromanagement of skills points IS GONE, and skill lists are appropriately reduced.

I swear, ever time I hear this I just want to scream...

"It takes two hours to create a character"
"You need a degree in advanced calculus to figure skill points" (I actually had that said to Me while working at the WotC booth answering 4th ed questions at Gencon 2007).
"3rd ed doesn't allow for role playing in character creation"

Even with the core books, the first four complete books, the three race books... I could make a character in under 30 mins, typically within half an hour. Leveling wasn't even 10 minutes...

Why? Because I had a concept, a background. I knew what I wanted him to be and then built my character using that. I didn't agonize over every little detail of min/maxing, trying to figure out what the GM had planned so I can tweak my char to mess with that, etc.

So all I've got to say is "GET OVER IT!" its a damm game not the fight to steal bill gates millions.

 

[GamerDude]

Doch. From what I saw in the official sneak previews, the whole game seems to be more candyland and "politically correct".

POLITICALLY CORRECT?

THis is one freakingly DARK version. Tieflings come from an empire where the dissenting clans had to be killed so the rest could unanimously enter into an infernal pact, one that affected them physically and permanently.

Warlock... one 'build' is that you study things so dark that Asmodius himself killed the demons and removed their names from all existence.

One DARK game...


Oh, there are TWO races of elves... High Elves (Eladrin) and wood/low elves (Elves)...
anyone saying there are more than that doesn't know how to read

 

[GamerDude]

I like the new skill system that they stole from Star Wars saga. The fact that every character gets pretty good at everything once they achieve higher levels is very Conan in my opinion.

But yeah, DnD 4 is just WoW in pen and paper format. I plan on taking the good stuff and leaving the rest. Also, the art is turds.

STOLE?

Has anyone here actually read how the development process went? Lots of the ideas and mechanics went back and forth between the SW:SE and the 4th ed R&D teams. Heck, if you want to look at it taht way, then SW:SE stole the 'talent' mechanic from d20Modern!

And, while most skills have something you can do untrained, many things can only be done trained. Now skills in both are more cookie cutter than anything, all to accommodate people who can't handle doing some basic math in their head.

 

[rabindranath72]

And, while most skills have something you can do untrained, many things can only be done trained. Now skills in both are more cookie cutter than anything, all to accommodate people who can't handle doing some basic math in their head.

I suggest you do a little "statistical" work by yourself, and go check how many PCs and NPCs reported in published adventures have the CORRECT number of skill points assigned.
It is not the "little" additions that cause trouble, but the repetition of these operations "ad nauseam" once you start creating high level PCs (it can happen, you know) or NPCs or monsters or whatever (trust me, I am a PhD in mathematics, and I PREFER my work than having to spend 1 hour to create a 10th level character, which in the end will more than likely contain errors).
Oh, that is assuming the character is one class and does not increase his intelligence in the meanwhile.
Is it by chance that the 3.x DMG wasted lots of spaces on pregenerated PCs?
Or that other systems like True20 and Pathfinder introduced simplifications?
No, you do not need to know Calculus, but it can surely be annoying to waste tens of minutes and THEN not even e sure to get the numbers correct. And if the numbers you end with are not correct, what is the point of all this exercise?

So, you like 3.x : GOOD! That 3.x lives on micromanagement is a fact. That you like it and I do not like it, is a matter of tastes. There are things called tastes

 

[Hervé]

Strangely enough, there was the same kind of passionate debate when DD3 came out some 10 years ago...

"It used to be better in the past..."
"New ed is total crap."
"I'll stay to the old one..."
And so on...

In the end everybody ended using the new system, except for a few hardcore old school rebels. Why should it be different now? Those who hated the game will keep hating it, and those who liked it will convert in the end.

As they say "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"...
(ie The more the things change, the more they're staying the same)

 

[BigSteveUK]

End of the day people will moan about 4e and I am sure it won't cater to all tastes, but it will succeed and as time progress it will become more and more established. I must admit the licensing rules seem a bit twee!!
I had my doubts and I still haven't played it, but a few of my friends have a copy and a large % of reviews so far have been fairly positive. I think on the whole people are now going for a more streamlined approach to rpg games. Take a look at the current batch of popular games Savage Worlds, Star Wars Saga, Trail of Cthulhu, UnMet etc They are fairly simple streamlined systems that get you straight into the game. I don't want to know if my left shoulder plate of armour has been scratched and every time I do something different the GM has to stop the game and thumb through the rules.

I just want to jump straight into the action and save the damsel.

Personally I think if Conan was ever to be ported; RQ would be the systems as it just fits better.

Yay it’s the weekend,

Steve

 

[DigitalMage]

just to take a closer look, and there won't be a new SRD for all I know.)

There is a new SRD but it is only a list of stuff from the core books that 3rd parties can reference if they produce stuff under the GSL. So unfortunately it doesn't allow a preview of the rules themselves.

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf

 

[rabindranath72]

As they say "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"...
(ie The more the things change, the more they're staying the same)

QFT :lol:
I still play classic D&D, AD&D (1 & 2) and now 4e. It is just that I do not like 3.x at all.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

The real problem of 3.xe was which was the maximum skill rank for multiclass characters. That's something Conan solved much better.
I had hoped that 4e would take the 3.xe to the next logical level: the removal of classes, allowing every possible character concept. But they did the opposite.

 

[Hervé]

BigSteveUK wrote:

Personally I think if Conan was ever to be ported; RQ would be the systems as it just fits better.

Even more when you think that Vincent Darlage wrote a Conan RQ and that Mongoose chose to publish a D20 second-edition-that's-not-really-a-second-edition.

Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:

I had hoped that 4e would take the 3.xe to the next logical level: the removal of classes

I guess that D&D without class and levels just wouldn't be D&D anymore...

rabindranath72 wrote:

I suggest you do a little "statistical" work by yourself, and go check how many PCs and NPCs reported in published adventures have the CORRECT number of skill points assigned.
It is not the "little" additions that cause trouble, but the repetition of these operations "ad nauseam" once you start creating high level PCs (it can happen, you know) or NPCs or monsters or whatever (trust me, I am a PhD in mathematics, and I PREFER my work than having to spend 1 hour to create a 10th level character, which in the end will more than likely contain errors).
Oh, that is assuming the character is one class and does not increase his intelligence in the meanwhile.
Is it by chance that the 3.x DMG wasted lots of spaces on pregenerated PCs?
Or that other systems like True20 and Pathfinder introduced simplifications?
No, you do not need to know Calculus, but it can surely be annoying to waste tens of minutes and THEN not even e sure to get the numbers correct. And if the numbers you end with are not correct, what is the point of all this exercise?

So, you like 3.x : GOOD! That 3.x lives on micromanagement is a fact. That you like it and I do not like it, is a matter of tastes. There are things called tastes Smile

I completely agree on this one (except I don't have a PhD in mathematics!). I think WTC completely blew it with the skill rank system of the 3/3.5. Added to a endless list of often ridiculous feats, synergy bonuses and situational modifiers, you get one of the most cumbersome system since Rolemaster, where NPC creation is so painful. I guess the main reason is that D&D was designed to be a hero vs. monster game. In Conan, most enemies are humans, so you have to spend much more time in crunching numbers instead of just picking a monster from the (many) MM(s).

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:

I had hoped that 4e would take the 3.xe to the next logical level: the removal of classes

I guess that D&D without class and levels just wouldn't be D&D anymore...

It would still be. It would have been just a continuation of the extensive multicalssing rules of 3.xe

 

[rabindranath72]

The real problem of 3.xe was which was the maximum skill rank for multiclass characters. That's something Conan solved much better.
I had hoped that 4e would take the 3.xe to the next logical level: the removal of classes, allowing every possible character concept. But they did the opposite.

I guess that would have been too radical a move. After 30 years, D&D still boils down to races, classes and levels. I guess for the kind of fantasy it want(ed) to produce, it is a good choice.