Why I love Conan (Conan vs 4th edition)

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

It is not!
Originally there were only classes in D&D.
AD&D brought races and multiclassing into the mix.
D&D 3e extended the multiclassing and added the prestige classes.
Do you really need classes, if you can change class every level? In 3e the classes became just a tool for leveling up.

 

[rabindranath72]

It is not!
Originally there were only classes in D&D.
AD&D brought races and multiclassing into the mix.
D&D 3e extended the multiclassing and added the prestige classes.
Do you really need classes, if you can change class every level? In 3e the classes became just a tool for leveling up.

Well, "originally" as in white box? Because already with Supplement I, Greyhawk, Gary introduced races and classes.
Oh well, considering that they wanted to go "back" to (A)D&D, reinforcing the archetypes is an obvious choice. For what is worth, I like limited multiclassing and the strict archetypes. *shrug*

 

[rabindranath72]

It is worth mentioning that Mike Mearls, one of the lead 4e designers, is quite active in the OD&D community and still plays the game.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

It is not!
Originally there were only classes in D&D.
AD&D brought races and multiclassing into the mix.
D&D 3e extended the multiclassing and added the prestige classes.
Do you really need classes, if you can change class every level? In 3e the classes became just a tool for leveling up.

Well, "originally" as in white box? Because already with Supplement I, Greyhawk, Gary introduced races and classes.
Oh well, considering that they wanted to go "back" to (A)D&D, reinforcing the archetypes is an obvious choice. For what is worth, I like limited multiclassing and the strict archetypes. *shrug*

With original I meant the version of D&D which existed until TSR ended it in favour of AD&D. It was the version of D&D with the red, blue, green, black and gold boxes and it was the version which was translated into german by the creator of DSA (btw he also translated T&T into german). That version did only know seven classes (Cleric (& Druid as variant), Fighter (& Paladin, Knight and Avenger), Magic-User, Thief, Elf, Dwarf and Halfling).

The big problem of 4e is that it is not compatible to eralier versions of D&D. Other rpgs have not that problem, even if they had more changes as for example DSA, which started as a simple RPG with 5 classes (Adventurer, Warrior, Magician, Elf, Dwarf) and a good combat system but no skills. In its fourth edition it very complex with serveral races, cultures and professions replacing the classes and a variant of the skills system they added in the second edition. But most of the material can still be used. And that's something that is not possible in 4e.

Some one said tha Conan 2nd Edition is not really a second edition. Why not? A new edition does not mean a complete makeover. It means that rules a clarified or streamlined and that new rules are added. And if the changes are bigger it is still very simple to convert older material to the new edition.

 

[GamerDude]

(trust me, I am a PhD in mathematics, and I PREFER my work than having to spend 1 hour to create a 10th level character, which in the end will more than likely contain errors).
Oh, that is assuming the character is one class and does not increase his intelligence in the meanwhile.

Then you have problems doing math.

My simple process:
1) Make sure all class-skills are clearly marked
2) Calculate how many total skill points you get
3) as you spend them, mark off what you spent
4) when what you spent is equal to what you had to spend, you are done.

10 minutes, no hassles. I've never had a character that was checked have an error.

I've also had people either mis-spend or actually try cheating on the char sheet (marking cross class skills with ranks with a different tiny mark, and getting the pencil graphite so everything was hard to tell apart. I didn't need a calculator, just my brain, to quickly see what they had done.

Maybe I'm just special, but I personally never had a problem with the math for skill ranks. NEVER...

 

[GamerDude]

Here's a question I love in my former field, IT.

Q: What's the perfect computer?
A: The one that does what you want, in the way you want, with the software you want. Doesn't matter if it's a Commodore-64 or a Cray Supercomputer.


So, what does that have to do with all this?

Q: What is the perfect RPG system?
A: The one that does what you want, in the way you want, with the software you want. Doesn't matter if its OD&D, GURPS, 3rd ed D&D, Rolemaster or larping with 'rock,paper,sissors' as your combat system.

There is NO perfect system that everyone will love. You don't like 3rd ed then don't play it. You don't like 4th ed then don't play it. Every system has its great points and its flaws. I've been teaching 3rd ed for WotC since 2005, teaching 4th ed since March, own the 4th ed books, kept my 3.5 leather core books etc.

I'll play what gives me and my friends the most fun. 3rd ed or 4th ed GURPS, 3.5 D&D, Piazo's new version of 3rd, 4th ed D&D, Hero 5th, Paranoia, Conan, or "Rock Paper Sissors".

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

But it's getting complicated if you are creating multiclassed characters.

 

[GamerDude]

But it's getting complicated if you are creating multiclassed characters.

Yes that was more complicated than a single classed character, but that just meant a little more work... doing it on a piece of scratch paper before writing the totals down... but it was still fun watching people trying to find a mistake.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

The real problem are those skills, those class skill for one class but crossclass skills for another.
Is the maximum skill rank:
- sum of all class levels +3
- differs from class to class
- or much more complex

Conan RPG solves that problem much better.

 

[rabindranath72]

(trust me, I am a PhD in mathematics, and I PREFER my work than having to spend 1 hour to create a 10th level character, which in the end will more than likely contain errors).
Oh, that is assuming the character is one class and does not increase his intelligence in the meanwhile.

Then you have problems doing math.

My simple process:
1) Make sure all class-skills are clearly marked
2) Calculate how many total skill points you get
3) as you spend them, mark off what you spent
4) when what you spent is equal to what you had to spend, you are done.

10 minutes, no hassles. I've never had a character that was checked have an error.

I've also had people either mis-spend or actually try cheating on the char sheet (marking cross class skills with ranks with a different tiny mark, and getting the pencil graphite so everything was hard to tell apart. I didn't need a calculator, just my brain, to quickly see what they had done.

Maybe I'm just special, but I personally never had a problem with the math for skill ranks. NEVER...

Yes, you are special in some ways, since you did not seem to understand what I said (or, to be more PC, I did not express myself well). No huge matter. I really do not care to explain to you something that is evident at least to a lot of publishers. This is ENOUGH for me to say that things are not that streamlined as they could be.
Probably the miriad ERRORS in the published books are by people who sleeps while writes. :roll:

 

[rabindranath72]

The real problem are those skills, those class skill for one class but crossclass skills for another.
Is the maximum skill rank:
- sum of all class levels +3
- differs from class to class
- or much more complex

Conan RPG solves that problem much better.

It's your imagination. It's not a problem. You have problems with math. You are not special. :wink:

 

[rabindranath72]

But it's getting complicated if you are creating multiclassed characters.

Yes that was more complicated than a single classed character, but that just meant a little more work... doing it on a piece of scratch paper before writing the totals down... but it was still fun watching people trying to find a mistake.

Ah, yes, it is nice to go hunting for mistakes. :roll:

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

I have no problem with math. Math is part of my life. The rules are not clear, because I have seen the first two interpretations in the computer games.
(Correction: The first one is the correct one.)

 

[Malcadon]

Yep, the math is way to complex, so I should give up on it and other game systems all together, and just go into free-form LARPing. I'm going to start a Frost-Giant's Daughter LARP adventure, and I'm looking for a female player to play Atali - this time, there is going to have a slightly different ending - and after that, something along the lines of Tarzan or Princess of Mars. :wink: You know, the way LARP should be played! :twisted:

 

[Style]

I guess that D&D without class and levels just wouldn't be D&D anymore...

You can have a system with levels but with out classes. I've seen classless C&C that was like this, and my own creation classless D&D 3.5. Just tossing that out there...

 

[Vortigern]

Doch. From what I saw in the official sneak previews, the whole game seems to be more candyland and "politically correct".

POLITICALLY CORRECT?

THis is one freakingly DARK version. Tieflings come from an empire where the dissenting clans had to be killed so the rest could unanimously enter into an infernal pact, one that affected them physically and permanently.

Warlock... one 'build' is that you study things so dark that Asmodius himself killed the demons and removed their names from all existence.

One DARK game...


Oh, there are TWO races of elves... High Elves (Eladrin) and wood/low elves (Elves)...
anyone saying there are more than that doesn't know how to read

Actually I agree with Clovenhoof here. That is a trend I noted well before 4th Ed however... and was one of the primary reasons I started looking at Conan. I suppose I really had my fill of it in eberron.

To me, the candyland/PC style simply ruins my verisimilitude. I end up not being interested in the story rather quickly. But I suppose that is a matter of personal taste.

As for the tiefling and warlock... they are both very interesting 'ideas' in this context. I'm going to reserve judgement on the execution however.

More important is the overall composition of the game/setting etc. I've noted for example a trend towards an assumption in game/setting that customs are gender-equal/friendly, rather than traditional/patriarchal. That was one of the things I noted in eberron, to be particular. It seems to be something that 4th Ed is embracing as well, if my new PHB is any indicator... though I suppose that rather heavily depends on the setting book etc. But the PHB isn't very encouraging on that note.

Right now I have a 'pessimistic, but will wait and see' standpoint on 4th ed. It doesn't look promising for my style of gaming, but I'm sure I'll end up having to follow lemmings over that particular cliff to find a game at some point as I move around rather frequently.

 

[Sutek]

I agree also. To suggest that a passing mention of something potentially nasty equals "DARK" is, in my opinion, an admission of lack of exposure. Teiflings are essentially depressed little emo kids of the new "spread the jam thin" D&D. The goons at WOTC have "ballanced" things so that all classes are just alike with every one of them getting an equal and even number of abilities awarded at the same pace so that noone gets thier feelings hurt.

I think not only will my group continue to play 3.5 or Conan, but I suspect that enough people with avoid the new D&D rules to the point that, before year's end, 5.0 rumors will be rampant.

In sort: The difference between the Conan RPG and the new D&D is that the new D&D sucks...unless you enjoy being spoo-fed bland and unintersting, underdeveloped crapola.

 

[Strom]

I haven't read much of the hype or pre-release material and so have not got caught up in the hysteria of if it's a good game or good upgrade from 3.5. I'm enjoying the discussion back and forth.

That said, I was very impressed with the quality of the 3 core books when I spied them at the bookstore last week. Top notch printing and color with just the right amount of pages - and price. The images looked great and the high quality paper made for one very attractive - and hence - exciting product.

I love me some Conan RPG - and don't see me jumping on 4th edition D&D - but after my last few Mongoose purchases and seeing -and feeling - the new core books from WOTC, there can be no doubt that the 'goose needs to up their game on the print side to compete with the lavish books of D&D 4.0.

I hope Mongoose steps up to the plate and delivers comparable quality.

 

[GamerDude]

I agree also. To suggest that a passing mention of something potentially nasty equals "DARK" is, in my opinion, an admission of lack of exposure.

My "Exposure" to 4th ed
- WotC Gencon 2007 booth worker teamed with R&D Staffers answering questions on 4th ed
- WotC sent me both preview books before retail release (and read them thoroughly several times)
- Part of the team selected to exclusively run 4th ed introductory adventures in March this year (accomplished several dozen sessions).
- Received my 4th ed books directly from WotC 2 weeks before the retail release date, received "Keep on the Shadowfel" even earlier before it was released.
- Immediately started a 4th ed game upon receiving the books.


Oh, I am quite familiar with where Tieflings came from under 2nd ed, and their existence in 3rd ed.

But, as a core PC race for 4th ed, they have a DARK story... nasty...
and Warlocs with their "infernal pact" are even darker (3rd ed warlock was by design for evil/chaotic characters, demon pacts and shit... NOT heros).


Why were half-orcs removed from the core races? The answer comes straight from the preview books: "They had too dark of a backstory"... (I.E. if they stayed with the 'product of rape' instead of treating them the way shifters-human/lycanthrope hybrids and changlings-human/doppleganger hybrides, were for eberron.)

Under WotC D&D is getting nastier, darker, and oh so uber-politically correct it's sickening.

 

[GamerDude]

I love me some Conan RPG - and don't see me jumping on 4th edition D&D - but after my last few Mongoose purchases and seeing -and feeling - the new core books from WOTC, there can be no doubt that the 'goose needs to up their game on the print side to compete with the lavish books of D&D 4.0.

After all my experiance with 4th ed and even starting a weekly game, I've already told the players that it's cancelled permanently and I'm going back to Conan. I have always loved how it took the 3rd ed mechanic and made it better... "the game is the same, only better" (said in a bad french accent).

Conan has '4th-ed-like' combat options without the dumbing down of 4th ed. It is good old-fashioned 'Sword & Sorcery' instead of the new-monty-haul, politically correct, lets go dark just to give some players the power boost their silly little egos need.